The House of Netjer, a Kemetic Orthodox Temple

[PUBLIC] About the Kemetic Orthodox Religion => [PUBLIC] Kemetic Orthodox Q&A => Topic started by: Tobi on November 10, 2009, 01:57:54 pm

Title: Christmas?
Post by: Tobi on November 10, 2009, 01:57:54 pm
Something I've always wondered, and since it's not too far off, was wether or not you members celebrate Christmas or just pass on it?
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tuwer on November 10, 2009, 02:39:25 pm
For me, Christmas has two aspects: the sacred (religious) and secular. I don't celebrate the sacred, but I do celebrate the secular aspect with family... decorated trees, gifts, and enjoying the time with family and friends that don't live close enough to visit very often. Christmas is a time of reflection on what is important for me, as well. :)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Bastmuttepta on November 10, 2009, 03:10:46 pm
I definitely celebrate secular Christmas. The secular activities and the religious activities for the most part are easily separated- trees, buying gifts for your family, decorations, carols- they're not things specific to the Christmas religious holiday. Nativities, religious christmas carols, going to Church, etc- I don't partake in those, though I have gone to Church in the past simply to show support for my family in their belief. Most of the Christmas traditions society partakes in pre-date the establishment of the Christmas "Holy-day" so I don't see them as being too terribly related.

Senebty,

Laura
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Senedjem on November 10, 2009, 03:18:29 pm
Em hotep!

I'd say I enjoy secular stuff at Christmas- Christmas music, parties, dinner, Christmas candy, egg nog, and such.

Senebty
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Taji on November 10, 2009, 03:22:36 pm
I celebrate it secularly and as a form of ancestor veneration.  Because it was important to them too.  
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: The Tai'awepwawet System on November 10, 2009, 03:55:20 pm
I don't believe in either spiritual or secular Christmas.

Spritual Christmas is not Christian, it's Yule, except it's not Pagan, so I find it just a big [censored].

Secular Christmas? It's a RELIGIOUS festival (albeit a made up substitute one), there is no such thing to me.


I return presents to the people who feel the need to give them to me, ie: my parents (and pretty much just them), but that's it really. It's a nice private little gift giving thingy.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Huyitu on November 10, 2009, 05:12:47 pm
I love Christmas, its the only good thing about winter time other than its end. Its the time of the year all my childhood friends come back to Kansas and catch up with relatives I rarely see. Some of my favorite foods are only made at that time of year too. Oh and when I was little (it has since gone under) there was even a small Christmas amusement park near my home town which was so much fun to go to! Heck I even like the religious parts, I think the story of Christ's birth is neat and I like to watch the plays they put on and the manger scenes under trees and in the yards. Then again I'm the guy that celebrates hellenic and wiccan festivals with his friends. I guess I just like to celebrate! It also helps I suppose that there is a part of me that still loves the catholic church, I just don't love their god, but Mary and the saints rock, Nuns are awesome, and the buildings, well I can see why a god would want to live in one.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Senedjem on November 10, 2009, 05:23:33 pm
I like the food too. Turkey and dressing, yahoo!
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Djehutyendy on November 10, 2009, 05:28:14 pm
I love Christmas! I love everything about it! Most of all, I love the Christmas spirit. I love going to the mall seeing Santa with all the happy and excited kids, houses decorated with lights, getting together with family, and music and FOOD! All that is secular Christmas stuff, but I even like the religious part of it. While I don't believe in it myself (obviously), I still think it's really neat. I used to go to a Christmas Eve mass, but I don't do that anymore. However, I do still enjoy going to the churches nativity things they set up and being a part of that. I like singing the religious songs, too. In fact the religious Christmas songs are my favorite. So while I don't really do religious stuff myself, I still enjoy it.

The last couple years I have spent Christmas Eve with my sister's fiance and his family. They celebrate Christmas then because they are Polish. It's also quite religious, which I find neat. And then Christmas day, they all come celebrate Christmas with us.

I just love holidays! Any excuse for merriment and gatherings is good enough for me, hehe.

Senebty
Endy
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tahai on November 10, 2009, 08:13:44 pm
I love Christmas time too, though I've started referring to it as the Winter Holidays or just The Holidays.  I figure that covers all the bases.

I celebrate with the secular trappings of the Christmas Season, and I go to my nephews' christmas pageants.   This year I will be celebrating the Return of the Distant Goddess and the Establishment of the Heavenly Cow, affectionately known as Moomas.  I will be creating new traditions with some of my fellow KOs, and am really looking forward to that.

*drifts of humming 'ding-dong merrily on high...'*
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: ubenet on November 10, 2009, 09:01:56 pm
i celebrate christmas as a family thing - we go to midnight mass, just like generations and generations of my akhu did, and we exchange presents, and we eat waffles, and we play all the christmas carols ever (especially my mom's favorite christmas album, hanson's snowed in ;) ).  

eeyore explains very well why i never mind when people wish me a happy [holiday i don't celebrate]:

Quote from: A.A. Milne

Pooh scratched his head, being a little puzzled by all this.

"But is it really your birthday?" he asked.

"It is."
 
"Oh! Well, Many happy returns of the day, Eeyore."

"And many happy returns to you, Pooh Bear."

"But it isn't my birthday."

"No, it's mine."

"But you said 'Many happy returns' -- "

"Well,  why  not? You don't always want to be miserable on my birthday, do you?"
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sobekemiti on November 10, 2009, 09:14:35 pm
Christmas is awesome. I might not be Christian anymore, but I still celebrate it because the family aspect is far more important to be than anything else. We put the tree up together, and it really is a nice thing to do, with all the little ornaments and getting the house ready for Christmas. There are a pair of baby shoes that me and my brother wore that go on the tree, as well as a bunch of other ornaments we've made.

Plus, the closer Christmas gets, the closer my birthday gets, so even more reason to like it. :P It really is tough going a whole year between presents. XD But I do buy Christmas presents, at least for my immediate family, and a few friends if I know I'm going to see them.

I do actually pay attention to the Christian aspect of it, because it's important to my family. I don't go to Church with them anymore, but I used to do midnight mass with them in the cathedral until Aset told me not to go anymore. I think about Mary a lot though, and I've felt her around a few times, as if she appreciates the attention, even from someone like me.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Menemaset on November 10, 2009, 09:30:07 pm
Quote from: Tahai
I celebrate with the secular trappings of the Christmas Season, and I go to my nephews' christmas pageants.   This year I will be celebrating the Return of the Distant Goddess and the Establishment of the Heavenly Cow, affectionately known as Moomas.  I will be creating new traditions with some of my fellow KOs, and am really looking forward to that.


Squee! :)

I more or less celebrate Christmas/The Winter Solstice/Yule/Alban Arthan/whatever! Life can be really hectic sometimes and it becomes more difficult to spend time with family and friends. Thus, it becomes a built-in day to enjoy the company of our families and friends. At least, this is how it is for me. :)

With this being said, I am very excited to be jumping into the "Moomas" festivities this year. :)

Senebty,

Coty
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Corvina on November 11, 2009, 12:18:35 am
I never celebrate Xmas because, well it's a christian holiday and I'm not christian. I celebrate Midsummer (Dec 22 in the Southern Hemisphere) and usually I work as the rest of my colleagues are christian and I take other time off in lieu. Last year was the first time I had Xmas off in ten years. Now my daughter is older, it's convenient to have time off whilst she's on school holidays. But I'm working 24th Dec again this year. It's no biggie.

I'm also someone who thinks it a tad hypocritical to celebrate a holiday that's not of my faith and isn't REALLY secular either. But each to their own :)

Blessed be,
Corvina
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Darytessekhmet on November 11, 2009, 07:42:34 am
I love Christmas time!  I love the lights and sounds.  It brings many good feelings for me. I see it as Yule, and celebrate that too.  Unfortunately due to the nature of my job, I always have to work Christmas Eve or Day.  But what time I do have off I celebrate with family.

For me it's a family celebration, nothing to do with Christ.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Rev. Shezatwepwawet on November 11, 2009, 08:38:51 am
I do celebrate secular Christmas, since in my lovely Swedish family it's a pork-heavy celebration (Hail the Vanir!) and still retains a lot of the Yule traditions down to its name: Jul. (J pronounced more like a Y) I know we have Moomas here but my spiritual inclination now is to celebrate Yule, Mothernights, and honor the Wild Hunt as they pass overhead. It also means a chance to honor the family Akhu I knew in life as well as those long past. They seem to like it. Especially the big plate of food I offer them on Christmas eve.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Kefetmisenu on November 11, 2009, 08:53:41 am
OMGS I LOVE Christmas! It's my favorite holiday!

I celebrate it for multiple reasons. First, I do it to honor my family. They all celebrated it with joy, and to honor Them I do the same. Second, to me Christmas has become more of a national holiday than just a religious one. And not to mention, it's a beautiful time of the year.

I also honor my Mother on Moomas, which usually falls very close to Christmas.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Metitaitui on November 11, 2009, 09:41:47 am
I don't see a problem with celebrating Christmas while being non-Christian. Especially when my family  and friends have been so loving and accepting of my faith and have celebrated my faith's holidays with me. It's a time to enjoy company with the people I love and who love me back.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Bestekeni on November 11, 2009, 10:25:53 am
I've never been Christian, so it's not an issue for me.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Mezaenaset on November 11, 2009, 10:35:38 am
Heh... I guess I'm the oddball.  

After my parents divorced, there was a constant struggle and battle for where my bother and I would be for Christmas day.  Both parents felt entitled and spending a half of day with each one was unacceptable.

I grew to dread Christmas.  There was no "peace on earth" in my broken family.  After a few years of this I decided that neither parent would have me for Christmas... my partner and I went to Las Vegas!  We did that for several years in a row.  I stopped buying presents and sending cards, too.  I told everyone that I didn't do Christmas.  Sometimes I did Yule, however.   :)

Some years I celebrate the season with lights and decorations- my favorite part!  Some years I do nothing.  I don't know which I will do this year.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Wolf_Cub on November 11, 2009, 11:43:18 am
Hmmmmm. Let's see. I was raised Roman Catholic, but found Taoism and Buddhism fairly early in life and was nearly instantly converted from my first readings. I've had friends over the course of my life who were different varieties of Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Pagan, Agnostic, and Atheist. My boyfriend is a member of the House.

The way I see, people like to celebrate the better parts of being alive. They'll find time and reason to do so, whatever their faith. And since I enjoy good food, good cheer, and good conversation with the people I care about, then I will join them in their celebrations - even if I do stand off the the side a bit. As long as what's being celebrated or commemorated is something I can agree with and stand behind, even if the faith itself is not mine, then I can put aside some differences and stand together in a spirit of congenial spirituality.

To me it's less of a question of secular versus religious (since that's really more of a spectrum than a clear cut division) than it is a question of whether I can find something in the celebration that I can connect with and bridge the gap of difference. "Peace on Earth, good will toward man"? Yeah, I can dig that. I'll pass on the Mass, though. But I'll be happy to bring a pumpkin pie to the party, if invited.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Djehutyendy on November 11, 2009, 12:09:18 pm
Quote from: Mezaenaset
After my parents divorced, there was a constant struggle and battle for where my bother and I would be for Christmas day.  Both parents felt entitled and spending a half of day with each one was unacceptable.


I went through the same thing for as long as I can remember. My parents got divorced when I was 6 or 7. But I think since I was young I was able to adjust easily. My sister never got used to it (she is two years older) and it has always bothered her a lot and made her upset. But the way my child's mind worked was that I got to have the excitement of opening presents twice! And TWO big meals! lol that's what I saw as a kid, and kind of stuck with that mentality when growing up. I feel lucky now that my parents can be in the same room together without biting each others heads off, so we can now celebrate Christmas together.

But anyway, I can see how that can ruin Christmas for people (as it ruined Christmas for my sister for many years). And I'm sorry you had to go through that, too.

Senebty
Endy
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Maainakhtsen on November 11, 2009, 12:35:13 pm
Quote from: SonOfYinepu
Something I've always wondered, and since it's not too far off, was wether or not you members celebrate Christmas or just pass on it?


I can't really claim to give it my full attention, but the choir girl in me still loves the music. Everyone can stop gagging now. :P
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Senushemi on November 11, 2009, 01:35:17 pm
Quote from: Maainakhtsen
I can't really claim to give it my full attention, but the choir girl in me still loves the music. Everyone can stop gagging now. :P


No gagging here.  I'm in your boat on this one.  :)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Taji on November 11, 2009, 03:43:45 pm
Quote from: Senushemi
No gagging here.  I'm in your boat on this one.  :)


Me too :)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Ankhetbast on November 11, 2009, 04:01:43 pm
Quote from: Wolf_Cub
The way I see, people like to celebrate the better parts of being alive. They'll find time and reason to do so, whatever their faith. And since I enjoy good food, good cheer, and good conversation with the people I care about, then I will join them in their celebrations - even if I do stand off the the side a bit. As long as what's being celebrated or commemorated is something I can agree with and stand behind, even if the faith itself is not mine, then I can put aside some differences and stand together in a spirit of congenial spirituality.

To me it's less of a question of secular versus religious (since that's really more of a spectrum than a clear cut division) than it is a question of whether I can find something in the celebration that I can connect with and bridge the gap of difference. "Peace on Earth, good will toward man"? Yeah, I can dig that. I'll pass on the Mass, though. But I'll be happy to bring a pumpkin pie to the party, if invited.  


This says very well how I feel about Christmas.  I do celebrate Yule as a turning of the season, and take time to meditate on bettering myself.  I enjoy the trappings as well.  
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Ankhetbast on November 11, 2009, 04:02:35 pm
Quote from: Maainakhtsen
I can't really claim to give it my full attention, but the choir girl in me still loves the music. Everyone can stop gagging now. :P


"Oh, Holy Night" is one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever composed!
Title: Re: Christmas? *DELETED*
Post by: Setjataset on November 11, 2009, 06:45:59 pm
Post deleted by Setjataset
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tahai on November 11, 2009, 07:11:32 pm
The Halelujah Chorus!  I loved singing that every christmas eve at midnight mass.  And Oh Holy Night...there was a man in my church who sent chills down my spine every time he sang that song.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Meresinepu on November 11, 2009, 09:13:43 pm
Em hotep all *henu*

Good question and great answers.   I like the 'spirit' of Christmas but I don't celebrate it.  I will get together with friends and family and exchange presents and enjoy each other but since I'm also not Christian it has no religious meaning to me.

Senebty
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sekhmetbitu on November 11, 2009, 09:42:36 pm
We celebrate "Christmas" in my house, but we call it GDH, or Generic December Holiday. I then go to my family's house (weather permitting) to spend time with my family, because that's the main reason to go for me. I don't do church or nativity scenes, or any of the Christian stuff, for me it's like second Thanksgiving with presents and family together time.

I used to LOVE Christmas, but as two of my grandparents died around that time, (Grandma was buried on Christmas Eve 1992) It's kind of a bittersweet holiday. I'll probably be going more all-out for Moomas this year instead.

And the way I see it, if Japan, with it's 1% Christian population can love Christmas as a secular holiday, so can I.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Kheretsenu on November 12, 2009, 06:48:55 pm
Yeah, I celebrate it. Where I live now, winter is cold and dark and depressing (beautiful too, sometimes). So the lead-up to Christmas, the lights and decorations, warm cider and songs, spending time with people you care about and whatnot are really helpful. I just think of it as the solstice, or the "festival of light" in a dark season.

As for the actual 4 or 5 days surrounding Christmas, that's the only time of the year that I get to go "home" and see my family. One or both of my parents might visit me in the midwest during the summer, but as for my brother and extended family, Christmas is all she wrote. So I do the whole shebang, gifts included, even though I hate shopping.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on November 15, 2009, 03:23:05 pm
I don't really celebrate Christmas. After giving up the Christian faith, I haven't really seen the point. For some years now, except the last year, we've been going to a pub for Christmas Eve (the only one in the city that's open that day, probably) just to drink some beers and spend time with our friends.

I incorporate some Finnish Christmas traditions into my celebrating the Return and Moomas, however, and am very fond of creating traditions of my own. To me, Return of the Distant Goddess is one of the most important days of the year, and I enjoy making the most out of it. Food, drink, friends, celebration <3 And lots and lots of candles.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Rennie1989 on November 15, 2009, 03:29:36 pm
Christmas has unforuntely turned too materialistic for me and is an absolute retail frenzie from October to January.  The only part of Christmas I really enjoy is seeing my family as we are often too busy to see eachother.

My boyfriend loves Christmas but being a student I can't really afford it, hence why I'm not a fan.  He on the other hand cannot understand why I don't like it and he loves the who shebang, the decorations, dinner, presents.  It makes me obliged to buy expensive presents when I can barely afford books.

Sorry I went on =D but that's just my feelings about Crimbo.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Wolf_Cub on November 15, 2009, 06:59:46 pm
Rennie1989, may I recommend Gifts in a Jar? You can google them for specific recipes. They're basically all the dry ingredients for delicious baked goods (i.e. chocolate chip cookies), arranged in layers inside of a mason jar. You can then decorate the outside with ribbons, glitter, stickers, etc.

They're nice gifts to give when you're tight on money, but still want to show someone that you care enough to spend the time to make them something. Plus, who doesn't like food anytime of the year? ;)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Kehawiitu on November 15, 2009, 10:18:56 pm
I have to do the Christmas thing because everyone else in my family does.  They would probably disown me if I avoided their Christmas celebrations.  That being said, I don't actually celebrate it.  I usually try to celebrate some other cultural or religious winter holiday and try to undermine Christmas with it, or at the very least educate my family on different holidays.  All in all, Christmas doesn't seem religious at all anymore.  It is about stuffing ones face and spending crazy amounts of money on stuff you don't need and are going to throw away in a few months.  It is a real shame. *steps off soapbox*
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Munefmontu on November 16, 2009, 12:18:56 am
We celebrate holidays all month long.

My nephew, Iahemheb-ka celebrates his birthday on December 10th. My brother celebrates his birthday Christmas eve. We celebrate what we jokingly call Solistmas, starting the 21st till the 25th. We have our own traditions, including games, and faerie gifts, etc. On the 25th we cook a huge meal and invite our families over, around 20 people or so, all enjoying the season together.

In our house we have a Christmas tree, decorated with "winter", and natural things...birds, bugs, dinosaurs, snowflakes...lol an odd assortment.

We also change our family altar (my household is a "pagan" one) seasonally, during winter its decorated with holly, mistletoe, ivy, stags, stars, snowflakes.

Shortly after the new year its my birthday....

I was raised catholic, but my parents are very accepting of my choices... so i'm not obligated to participate in any Christian celebrations.

I think people are what make Christmas or whatever you celebrate this time of year what it is. I would rather celebrate the year with my family at my table than get any presents at all. It dosen't have to be about the gifts or the money. For us its a time of year to remember all the wonderful things in life and why.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Rennie1989 on November 16, 2009, 03:30:55 am
@ Wolf_Cub:  What a fantastic idea!!  I think I know a few people would really like those!  Thank you very much for that idea.

@Munefmontu: Can I have Christmas at your place, it sounds really lovely =D x
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on November 16, 2009, 09:06:13 am
Great post, Munef. :) This is how we celebrate as well.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Raheri on November 17, 2009, 08:14:57 am
I enjoy the music of the season. I do love my Christmas songs, but have been know to change them up a bit to de-christianize them and make them fun and Kemetic themed.

Example of "Away in a Manger"

"Away in the Marshlands no crib for a bed,
the little Lord Heru lays down his sweet head"


...and that sort of thing. I am the master of plagerism (which isn't necessarily good but works out in this case)!

Senebty,
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tahai on November 17, 2009, 09:43:56 am
Raheri, I do the same with some of the Sunday School songs I learned in my youth.

"I've got the joy of Hethert, Joy of Hethert down in my heart - WHERE?  Down in my heart!  WHERE? Down in my heart!

I've got the Joy of Hethert Joy of Hethert Down in my Heart, Where? down in my heart to stay...."

:D
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Wolf_Cub on November 17, 2009, 10:29:43 am
Raheri really does speak the truth. It's unnerving how easily he can change song lyrics on the fly. Of course, sometimes his twisted sense of humor can ruin a perfectly good car ride on a Sunday afternoon... ;) (j/k)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Taysatwesir on November 19, 2009, 03:51:25 am
Raheri I love Kathy Mattea's Christmas Collage that everytime I hear it I sing of Wesir/Wennefer.

Solo:
O come, O come, Wennefer
Foremost of the Westerners

Beneficent Aset, who rescued her brother
Wandered about the land in mourning
Until Heru, son of Wesir appear

Harmony:
Rejoice! Rejoice! Wennefer
Shall come to thee, O Akhu
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sautyinepu on November 19, 2009, 12:28:10 pm
I celebrate Christmas... I FLOVE presents!   ;)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tobi on December 01, 2009, 06:23:24 pm
Quote from: Raheri
I enjoy the music of the season. I do love my Christmas songs, but have been know to change them up a bit to de-christianize them and make them fun and Kemetic themed.

Example of "Away in a Manger"

"Away in the Marshlands no crib for a bed,
the little Lord Heru lays down his sweet head"


...and that sort of thing. I am the master of plagerism (which isn't necessarily good but works out in this case)!

Senebty,


LOL that's actually pretty good. :D
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Seta on December 05, 2009, 09:34:45 pm
I have to admit that I still celebrate Christmas out of habit and the good things it reminds me of; as well, as means altogether.  Sometimes I feel guilty, and a traitor to the gods who I love and try to honor...

The past was filled with good times and good food with family.  Yes, I would lie if I didn't mention that it's super fun to receive gifts!  It's also great to give them!

As for what the holidays mean, in my view: to be giving and generous to the people around you, which doesn't exactly or singularly mean financially, unless someone needs it and you have it.  It means to treat others like you would have them treat you; to be friendly, receptive, kindly, and sympathetic to all life around you.  Basically how the creator in many ancient religions wished everyone to be all the time.

So, while I am not Christian, I do believe in some of the secular, universal, perhaps (well, no - definitely, but also in Christian beliefs too) pre-monotheistic faith things that the holidays mean.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Washtiemyinepu on December 06, 2009, 01:36:00 am
Here's some holiday fun; not really Kemetic except for being feline-themed:

YOUR CAT'S TOP TWENTY FAVORITE CHRISTMAS SONGS:
 
1.  Up on the Mousetop
2.  Furry Christmas, Baby
3.  Joy to the Curled
4.  I Saw Mommy Hiss at Santa Claus
5.  The First Meow
6.  Oh, Come All Ye Fishful
7.  Silent Mice
8.  Fluffy, the Snowman
9.  Jingle Balls
10. While Shepherds Washed their Paws by Night
11. Rudolph the Red Tabby Reindeer
12. I'm Gettin' Mutton for Christmas
13. Collar of the Bells
14. Feline Navidad
15. It's Beginning to Look a Lot like Kittens
16. Russian Blue Christmas
17. We Knead a Little Christmas
18. Have Yourself a Moggie Little Christmas
19. Angels We Have Purred On High
20. Wreck the Halls

liver bowls...liver bowls...it's Christmastime for the kitty...
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Payemheru on December 06, 2009, 10:45:22 pm
 If you examine the early versions of Christianity, it becomes apparent that much of it was borrowed from Kemetic stories about Netjer (Heru-sa-Aset in particular), so I have no problem celebrating it.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Seta on December 08, 2009, 07:06:37 pm
Quote from: Payemheru
If you examine the early versions of Christianity, it becomes apparent that much of it was borrowed from Kemetic stories about Netjer (Heru-sa-Aset in particular), so I have no problem celebrating it.


Saturnalia, celebrated in the Roman religion (a time of festivity, joy and gift-giving), as well as Norse religious takings (the tree representing Yggdrasil, if I'm not mistaken).  It's whole make up is from the ancient religions!

As the saying goes, Christianity has Pagan DNA.  Though, I'm not sure who created that statement; it's from a bumper-sticker.

It's also necessary to note that this time of the year was highly solar, even though the Northern hemisphere was in cold (All of these ancient religions were in the North.)  The Earth is actually closer to the sun at this time of the year, so I find it interesting for people who didn't have modern science to 'know' that - even if in a highly mythological way.

And that Set was called 'the bones of Geb', meaning and His metal was iron; the planet Earth has a molten iron core...

Quote from: Washtiemyinepu
Here's some holiday fun; not really Kemetic except for being feline-themed:

YOUR CAT'S TOP TWENTY FAVORITE CHRISTMAS SONGS:
 
1.  Up on the Mousetop
2.  Furry Christmas, Baby
3.  Joy to the Curled
4.  I Saw Mommy Hiss at Santa Claus
5.  The First Meow
6.  Oh, Come All Ye Fishful
7.  Silent Mice
8.  Fluffy, the Snowman
9.  Jingle Balls
10. While Shepherds Washed their Paws by Night
11. Rudolph the Red Tabby Reindeer
12. I'm Gettin' Mutton for Christmas
13. Collar of the Bells
14. Feline Navidad
15. It's Beginning to Look a Lot like Kittens
16. Russian Blue Christmas
17. We Knead a Little Christmas
18. Have Yourself a Moggie Little Christmas
19. Angels We Have Purred On High
20. Wreck the Halls

liver bowls...liver bowls...it's Christmastime for the kitty...


I love Bob River's parodies of the usual songs.  12 Pains of Christmas, Wreck the Malls, Chipmunks Roasting on an Open Fire, The Chipmunk Song, Pokemon, The Flu Song - which I can't remember its proper title.  The list goes on!
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Niheri on October 01, 2010, 05:49:01 am
I loathe how commercial Christmas has become (it's especially difficult from that respect as we have a lot of December birthdays in our immediate family).
I do know that this coming December I will be a very proud,(and probably embarrassingly tearful), Grandma as I watch my two eldest grand-childre,(aged 4 and 3) in their Nativity Plays. Not from any religious viewpoint, just tiny children doing the play are so heartbreakingly sweet :).
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Menemaset on October 01, 2010, 07:54:42 am
Quote from: Jet
I loathe how commercial Christmas has become (it's especially difficult from that respect as we have a lot of December birthdays in our immediate family).
I do know that this coming December I will be a very proud,(and probably embarrassingly tearful), Grandma as I watch my two eldest grand-childre,(aged 4 and 3) in their Nativity Plays. Not from any religious viewpoint, just tiny children doing the play are so heartbreakingly sweet :).


Definitely. :D I think a lot of the standard Christian symbolism of Christmas is inherently beautiful, even if it's not necessarily spiritually relevant to me. The nativity is definitely one of those beautiful aspects I like the most. :)

Senebty,

Menem
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Niheri on October 01, 2010, 04:19:43 pm
Menemaset - that was exactly it :).There is a lot of beautiful symbolism in Christianity - and someone said earlier in the thread that they celebrated i Christmas because it would have been important to their Akhu -which really touched me, actually, because it is true - yes, I'm very sure they did experience Christmas as a really important time...
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Setkheniitw on October 01, 2010, 04:27:19 pm
I celebrate Christmas.  I call it an Akhu veneration exercise, but to be honest I probably just like presents ;)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Khesretitui on October 02, 2010, 09:20:42 am
My family celebrates Christmas, so while I don't participate in the religious side of things, I hang out, give and receive gifts, and enjoy the fellowship. I send Happy Holidays and New Year cards to cover everyone equally.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Linda on October 02, 2010, 12:54:36 pm
I celebrate Christmas with my family, not the comercial side of it, but the meaning of Christmas. It is beautiful. My grandaughter is just 3yrs old too, and she's just started school. I don't think it'll be just me wiping tears away, but grandad too! :D This is what it's all about, not how much money we spend.  :)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: TiffanyL on October 02, 2010, 03:44:47 pm
Christmas to me has never been about religion. It may have been a very pure and religious holiday centuries ago, but now like some have said, it's become commercial. But, that's not a bad thing to me.

Seeing cute little kids in Santa hats, even myself wearing them is an occasion I look forward to. Wearing the hats, ringing bells, candy canes! This is what Christmas is to most in my area. I see more yards decorated with Santa and Rudolph than I do the Nativity scenes with Mary and baby Jesus.

Decorating a tree, getting someone I care about a gift on Christmas is a part of my life I look forward to and has been a tradition for a long time. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

--And about some of the religious songs, I love "Little Drummer Boy"! ;p
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sekhmetnenek on October 02, 2010, 04:39:20 pm
I can't believe I never responded to this :P

I celebrate Christmas. My family is comprised of mainly Christians, but to us it is the holiday of family. We get together, have a beautifully decorated party with lots of homemade food, and talk. We catch up with the relatives we don't see often, and appreciate the relatives we see every day. It is a great holiday. We even have special family traditions, like passing the fruitcake to a different member every year, which make the holiday even more personal. In fact, two engagements were made at this party (my Aunt and Uncle, and then her Son and his girlfriend). It is awesome.

Also, I was a big chorus kid in school, so I definitely love all of the music- even though I still bear a grudge against the Hallelujah Chorus and the rest of Handel's Messiah. You see, I am a tenor (actually, a Tenor II) and those high notes are insannnne :P Some of my best memories from school involve the winter concerts, and singing Christmas music. I also really love the decorations. The pine tree, representing life even through death (winter), the lights being used as a way to attract light even in the darkest times....the list goes on.

Christmas, even when I was Catholic, never felt like a super-religious holiday. Honestly, celebrating Yule as a Wiccan or Norse Pagan felt more spiritual/religious than with Catholicism. YMMV

Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Linda on October 03, 2010, 12:52:15 pm
I celebrate Yule too with my Pagan friends. And Christmas is a time for family. That is what I was trying to say, but i'm not very good at getting accross what I mean, which is not a good thing for a writer! :D
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 21, 2010, 11:50:24 pm
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh,

Seeing as Dec 25th is the birthday of Heru, and 'presents' /offerings would have been giving to him in his temples, I guess I can see how this whole thing developed over the millennia... But beside that, this day has really always been about family; never was it religious. Now for me it is has been for the past ten years, ever since I knew it was the birthday of Heru ;)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: The Tai'awepwawet System on October 22, 2010, 09:58:41 am
... Dec 25th is the birthday of Heru? Which one, and says who? o_O
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tanebet on October 22, 2010, 12:03:05 pm
It's usually the people comparing Heru-Sa-Aset with Jesus who claim that Heru-Sa-Aset was born on Christmas. So far I never saw any sources supporting that statement
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 22, 2010, 12:14:26 pm
Tis sounds like something from that stuff attempting to equate Isis/Horus with Mary/Jesus. I haven't seen real sources either, it's more like wishful thinking on their parts.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 22, 2010, 01:57:20 pm
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh,

I never was christian; I never was anything but Kemetic. I was not trying to equate Heru, or Heru-Sa-Aset with Jesus. In actuality, it has become a good debate as to say if Jesus was truly born on the 25th. In my personal opinion, the idea for Mary and the baby Jesus came from the image of Aset holding Heru.  Anyway, I have a Calendar which gives the Egyptian months in accordance to our system of the Gregorian Calendar: It also shows holidays/festival and sacred days such as the birthdays of Netjer.  In this calendar, the birthday of Heru is on the 25th of Dec; of the 10thof the Egyptian Months of Mechir.  Though this day was more than just his birthday it also was a day of rejoicing for the Wadjet Eye, and proclaiming the magnificence of Aset and all her names and manifestations.  It was a very important day in antiquity.

The calendar I have came from a book I had a while back: lost it in a move :( Though I did copy this calendar and other interesting things into my computer: If anyone desires to see this calendar, please send me a private message.  

Also, doing a quick search on Google, I found this websites. It is not the best, in my opinion, but their calendar is 'close' to the one I have; and you will see that the 25th is marked as the birday of Heru as the Child of Aset.  

www.aelives.com/holidays.htm
   
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Setkheniitw on October 22, 2010, 02:46:40 pm
Personally, I have occasionally fit Heru-sa-Aset into Christmas for the ambiance of it all, but I do not consider it His actual birthday.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 22, 2010, 02:50:33 pm
Well, let me ask you this: Do you consider the five days at the end of the year to be the actual birthdays of Usir, Aset, Set, Nebt-Het and Heru-Dnawy?
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Menekh on October 22, 2010, 03:48:20 pm
In the Kemetic Orthodox faith, we consider them to be the birthdays of Wesir, Heru-wer, Set, Aset and Nebthet respectively by the calendar that we use, and we honor them on those days.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 22, 2010, 04:39:08 pm
Em hotep Imsetra,

I did not say that you were trying to equate them, but I know that there is at least one website full of different *points* offered to do just that. It seems silly to do that from my personal point of view, and it stems more from a mindset of proving that ancient Egypt inspired or caused the later Christian "christmas" story.

This is an interesting subject and one of these days i have to find the other books written about the civil and lunar calendars.

I would be curious about that calendar you reference, since in antiquity there were many calendars in many temples and in many periods.  

I looked in _Temple Festival Calendars of Ancient Egypt_ by Sherif el-Sabban as one resource (there are others) and the very first (and pretty much only) reference to any "birthday" of the CHild Horus is on page 165 in the chapter entitled "Minor, Fragmentary and Late Calendars" because it comes from the Graeco-Roman temple of Esna and not earlier: the reference for this day (11th day of the fourth month of the second season  is also not solely about Horus the child, but also includes the procession of Neith, Heqa the child in the morning, union with the disk, performing the ritual of the divine birth of Ra in this day and performing the ritual of the divine birth of Horus in this day.

Even assuming that was the reference these modern calendars are based on seems questionable if only because since each of the three seasons had four months, and even assuming they are starting with a July New year date, that still does not seem to make our "December" the fourth month of "Winter".

For those generally interested, the calendars tended to be based on the location of the royal residence--for Kemetic Orthodox since that residence is in Illinois in the US our  Kemetic Year begins in August. So today is III Akhet 19 by that reckoning, that is, the 19th day of the third month of the season of Akhet, Inundation.

Senebty
Sedjemes
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Kheper on October 22, 2010, 07:02:31 pm
M Htp!  

This would be a cool coincidence IF Jesus was born in December.  Unfortunately the day of his birth is unknown.  However the birth month isn't.

A little background.  Firstly the Catholic Church established the birth of Jesus on December 25 to coincide with the Roman festival of Saturnalia.  It had nothing to do with historical accuracy and more with politics and making more converts.  Much like the church did with other pagan festivals, they co-opted an already existing one to suit their needs.  Basically to turn the people's attention away paganism and towards the church was their aim.

As to his birth date, most Biblical scholars agree his birth was somewhere around the month of October as measured on our Gregorian calendar (which didn't exist when he was born).  Several factors point to this.  Tiberius (also called Augustus)Caesar ordered that a census be taken of all the people under his rule.  This was not only in Jerusalem but elsewhere as well.  The Jews were already in a state of revolt.  It seems unlikely that the Emperor would order such a thing during the coldest and most rainy month (December) in Israel.  Also according to Biblical sources (the Gospels) shepherds were outdoors with their flocks, sleeping in the field.  Something very unlikely during December.  However, October fits the bill nicely as it was the end of summer and things were beginning to cool off and being outdoors all night wouldn't be a hardship for man nor beast. Consider also the Gospel account of Jesus being born in a stable, again not likely in the bitterly cold and wet month of December.  The account of the astrologers (or 3 kings) visiting Jesus on his birth date is inaccurate because if you read the account, it clearly says the journey took them some time to complete and when they found him he was living in a house (not a stable).  Also consider the miraculous star that "moved" as the astrologers(kings) journeyed and finally settled over the house where Jesus dwelt.  One last thing, the Astrologers visited King Herod first,...so again...not likely they saw Jesus at his birth if they took this detour.

I think I have made the point that Jesus' traditional birth date is more traditional than historically accurate.

To answer the OP:  I do celebrate Christmas, but I don't use the Christ iconography.  I prefer to use Santa Claus and give in the spirit of giving just for the sake of giving (without thought of getting in return).  While my family may be Christian, I do it my own way, but still show them the respect they deserve.  Gathering together, catching up, just being together is all I ever want for Christmas.  Perhaps a little forgiveness for not being the best kinda person all the time.  Course it goes both ways.

Senebty,
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 23, 2010, 03:01:56 am
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh,

To Menekh: That is what I said... Heru-dnawy is just another translation of Heru-ur(wer).  I was simply asking this question because it was mentioned it was not believed that the 25th is the actual date for Heru-sa-Aset's birth. Along with the question I asked, I wanted to know if it was believed that the other mentioned births of Netjer were believed to be on the five days which fall at the end of the year due in part to the fact that here they're celebrated in August when in actuality they fall in July (the 14th-18th). (Though, as Sedjemes has mentioned this is due in part that the Main Temple of the Faith is located in Illinois and Seris rises there during that time of the year). In my opinion, these birthdays should be celebrated in July when they actually occurred; though this is just my humble opinion.

Also, thank you Sedjemes for that information.  I will be sending you the calendar I have with more information on the subject later today.  And thank you Kheper, this was interesting in deed. :)

Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Menekh on October 23, 2010, 03:43:30 am
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
To Menekh: That is what I said... Heru-dnawy is just another translation of Heru-ur(wer).  

 
Clarification in Kemetic Orthodox practice:  Heru-the-elder/great and Heru-of-the-slashing/stretching-claws (depending on the translations used). While they are different forms of Heru, we see Them as serving in very different functions. If you look more closely at source material (Wilkinson's Complete Gods and Goddesses and others) and the ritual literature, They do serve very different functions and Dunanwy has different associations for us here in our practices.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tanebet on October 23, 2010, 07:39:40 am
Em hotep *henu*,

many Egyptian festivals depended on certain astronomical occurences (Full Moon, New Moon, Rising of Sirius) and as such the dates of the festivals weren't fixed but the date of the festival shifted a bit each year.
The rise of Sopdet over Joliet is calculated and adjusted each year and for us the birthdays of Wesir, Set, Heru-wer, Aset and Nebt-Het take currently place in early August, so for us the birthdays actually do occur on these days and not in July. But that's just what we believe.

Senebty
Tanebet  
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: ubenet on October 23, 2010, 09:26:14 am
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
I wanted to know if it was believed that the other mentioned births of Netjer were believed to be on the five days which fall at the end of the year due in part to the fact that here they're celebrated in August when in actuality they fall in July (the 14th-18th). (Though, as Sedjemes has mentioned this is due in part that the Main Temple of the Faith is located in Illinois and Seris rises there during that time of the year). In my opinion, these birthdays should be celebrated in July when they actually occurred; though this is just my humble opinion.


sorry, just for clarification:  by "in actuality" and "actually," you mean "according to the calendar you lost the source for"?
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 23, 2010, 02:21:08 pm
Ubenetsenu I said I lost the Book, but I copied/Scanned the calendar into my computer.... would you like me to send it to you?
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: ubenet on October 23, 2010, 02:27:04 pm
i know you have the calendar.  do you know what book it came from?  can you tell me where the author of that book got the information?  i don't understand why a calendar hanging out on your hard drive is supposed to be more valid than the one Rev. Siuda has been researching for years.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Setkheniitw on October 23, 2010, 03:55:47 pm
Until I see an actual source, I am inclined to believe that the alleged December 25th birthdate of Heru-sa-Aset or any Heru for that matter is a product of wishful thinking on the part of people who want to discredit Christianity.  Not that I would not believe there were ancient Egyptians celebrating His birthday on that date, and in fact festival calendars varied just as all festival calendars vary, but on initial search the only places I can find which cite such a date are those trying to prove in some way that Jesus is just Heru in different clothing.  I'm not saying that any of you are trying to make that point, but I would not be surprised if such sentiment was its source.

I do celebrate the birth of Heru-sa-Aset around that time in a secondary sense.  I do not acknowledge it as His actual birthday, I am simply looking at the common themes that do exist in order to participate in a widely-celebrated festival.

Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
In my opinion, these birthdays should be celebrated in July when they actually occurred; though this is just my humble opinion.


Our festival calendar is very well-researched and not the least bit arbitrary in its nature.  The ancient Egyptian calendar was itself calculated based on the residence of the Nisut (AUS).  To say that our celebration of the birthdays in question in August is "not when they actually occurred" is ignoring the way the ancient Egyptian festival calendar worked and fitting it into a Gregorian framework instead.  Our calendar didn't exist in ancient Egypt, so you can't just say that these birthdays "actually happened in July."

For those who are not Kemetic Orthodox and who do not recognize our Nisut (AUS), it may make sense to calculate the calendar based on a place in Egypt or to use a Gregorian substitute because there is no Nisut (AUS) to calculate a calendar by.  However, Kemetic Orthodoxy does have one and so it is more traditional to roll the calendar based on where She lives like was done in ancient times.  You don't have to acknowledge that personally, but that's the way it's going to be.

Not to mention, the very nature of calendars is that they slide and change because the Earth doesn't take a perfectly even number of days to go around the sun.  October 23rd today, for example, is not exactly the same time as October 23rd fifty years ago.  Should my grandmother adjust her birthday accordingly?
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Kheper on October 23, 2010, 03:57:13 pm
M Htp

To be fair, please quote from the book and or published research papers that the Nisut has authored that has led to her conclusions that the calendar must be viewed this way.

So far I've only read "because she said so."  If a person can't quote from an unknown source then neither can anyone else make points from sources they haven't quoted.  The OP isn't a Remetj or Shemsu and hasn't built up any faith in Rev. Siuda nor does she possibly have the same access to the Nisut's published works that others do.
Oh and since you're asking for published works then in all fairness the same should be provided.  Letters from the Nisut does not qualify as they are not critiqued by any other recognized or published scholars in the field.  They are little more than a blog and the result of one person's research/musings which aren't scrutinized by the world of Egyptian academia.

So be fair.  If you want sources, provide the name of the published works that support your claim, so far this hasn't been done on the HoN side either so how can anyone reasonably expect others to trust what's being said.  Only a fool would blindly follow someone else without any proof of their conclusions.  In the academic world, because "so and so said so" isn't good enough and will get you quickly discredited.


Here (http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Calendar.html) is an example of the ancient egyptian calendar as it was viewed.  As has been mentioned, the dates aren't static (unchanging), they do and will change.  It gives some interesting correlations but none of them back up the OP's claim of Heru's birthday being in December.  The author of the web page does quote a source for their calendar as being James P. Allen - 'Middle Egyptian; An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs'.

So now I'll wait for someone to quote from one of Rev. Siuda's published works regarding this matter.

Senebty,
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 23, 2010, 04:30:22 pm
Em hotep

Just as Roman Catholics accept the rolling date of Easter each year, even if they don't specifically know how it has been calculated (I did not, for example, until I looked it up one day many years ago, but I expect many simply accept it because the CHurch says so), there is nothing inherently wrong for Kemetic Orthodox to accept that, since our Nisut has told us over the years how she has determined our New Year dates, and when our New Year is, then that is when we celebrate it.

She has extensive research at her disposal and pretty much we accept that, not blindly but because we respect that as an Egyptologist she probably knows.

I am not saying this to even attempt to stop the conversation--don't believe in that--and people are free to decide for themselves. Nobody is telling anyone that a July date is wrong--we are just saying we don't go by July dates. Frankly, if Kemetic Orthodox wanted  even to celebrate personally in July and then with others in August, that would probably be perfectly ok too :) Accepting the Dates are just one of those things Kemetic Orthodox are ok with. The Nisut does have a calendar project on her list of writings but for now, it is fine for us to go by her calculations (which she does in conjunction with a local astronomer as well.

Senebty
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 23, 2010, 04:34:00 pm
By the way, the calendar on the webpage cited was done by one of our Kemetic Orthodox House Akhu, the WEsir Asetmeri, Kate Jonsson of Sweden. :)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: The Tai'awepwawet System on October 23, 2010, 04:46:38 pm
"We should celebrate them in July" is a bit daft given they recalculated their years constantly and thus the exact dates, in relation to our oh so wonderful concrete and set in stone Gregorian calendar (hur) would have shifted. Still been in 'July'? Quite possibly, at least for long periods of time. But over a 3-4 thousand year period? I'm not putting money on it.

The stars move in the heavens, and the turning of the Earth is not exact.



Equally, even IF Heru-sa-Aset's birthday was once equivilant to 25th December, it probably isn't now. No matter where you base you calendar.


And for the record, if my birthday was say, II Akhet 13, I think I'd like it to stay that day even if someone else complained that by their calendar that meant it was a different day sometimes.


ETA: Kheper, since all people are asking is for the name of the author or something, rather than whining for some kind of critically acclaimed academic work, I don't see the problem.

No, Letters from the Nisut would probably not be a suitable work to cite in an essay (or would it? I should check, really) because even though she has two Egyptology related M.A.s, the posts have not referenced. But in a forum? We're not quoting some hippy in a dress. She's a highly educated woman who's put in decades of academic study and has the qualifications to reflect that. So I consider citing her work, published or not, perfectly acceptable for casual spheres.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 23, 2010, 05:29:52 pm
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh,

I am sensing a bit of hostility here, and I feel it is necessary for us all, as aspiring scholars, to take a deep breath... This is one thing I loath about the internet; you can never truly understand someones tone in their writing.  My tone in this discussion has never been anything more than calm, so I would expect the tone of others to be around the same.  

For those asking, here is 'one' source I have (this book does not contain the all the holidays as the other; though I'm still searching for the others)

Parker, Richard A. 'The Calendars of Ancient Egypt'

Now, I understand that in antiquity, the Egyptians had more than one calendar, and they altered their calendars throughout their existence. Like the Aztecs and the Mayans, one calendar was strongly linked to the stars. Since this calendar was comprised of 360 days, the calendar actually 'wondered' through time: meaning events would not have occurred on the same day as it did the year before.

Though, look at it this way: If we took this idea to be the sole truth, than your birthday would never be the same; just like Sedjemes mentioned Easter never is on the same day year to year. To me, celebrating my birthday on a different day each year due in part to the alignment of a star and the moon would be very annoying to say the least.  

Also, the Nile would have flooded the same time each year. Thus Akhet would have occurred at the same time each year: perhaps a few days off from the previous year, but not by months. Akhet fall in our month of July (starting on the 19th) which is the Egyptian month of Thuthi (Tekh in the Old Kingdom / Dh'wt in the New Kingdom) Opet was always celebrated in this month; not in the month of Paopi which starts on August 18th (known as Men-het in the Old Kingdom / Panip't in the New Kingdom).  Now, what your Nisut calls Wep-Renpet is the old Kingdom name for the last month of the year (June 14th through July 13th) The famous Five Days which are the birthdays of Usir, Aset, Set, Nebthet and Heru-ur fall AFTER the month of Wep-Renpet.

Okay, the calendar was calculated by where the Nisut lived... well all Nisuts prior to our Nisut lived in Egypt.... all astrological phenomenon would have occurred in the sames months regardless if you were in Karnak (Waset) or in Coptus (Men-Nefer)....

So truly what is correct? What is truth?

 
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Setkheniitw on October 23, 2010, 06:28:29 pm
Quote
Though, look at it this way: If we took this idea to be the sole truth, than your birthday would never be the same; just like Sedjemes mentioned Easter never is on the same day year to year. To me, celebrating my birthday on a different day each year due in part to the alignment of a star and the moon would be very annoying to say the least.


That's how dates in a number of religions are observed, which is how come, for example, festivals based on a lunar calendar change from year to year.  If this were normal for birthdays in our culture, I doubt you'd even notice to be honest, especially if for example you only used a lunar calendar for that sort of thing.  It wouldn't be "Oh God, my birthday is February 28th this year, but it was February 2nd when I was born!" because you wouldn't perceive it as February 28th and February 2nd, you'd perceive it as whatever date on the lunar calendar that happened to be.  And even if you had a solar calendar as well, you'd still be raised to understand what's going on.  I think the fact that we aren't raised to understand multiple calendars is why this concept may seem so difficult to you.

Then again, maybe I'm just not understanding what exactly your problem with the whole concept is.  From the outside it just looks like you have a problem with dates not falling on the same Gregorian calendar date, but we aren't talking about the Gregorian calendar so the two just plain don't have to match to be accurate.  The Gregorian calendar is the Gregorian calendar, not the Kemetic calendar.

Quote
Now, what your Nisut calls Wep-Renpet is the old Kingdom name for the last month of the year (June 14th through July 13th)

I'm having a hard time following.  The entire calendar is based on astronomical occurrences from the vantage-point of Joliet, IL where Hemet (AUS) lives.  Not just a few of the festivals.  Hence, we do not recognize the last month as lasting from June 14th to July 13th.  The days after that month are adjusted accordingly.

Quote
Okay, the calendar was calculated by where the Nisut lived... well all Nisuts prior to our Nisut lived in Egypt.... all astrological phenomenon would have occurred in the sames months regardless if you were in Karnak (Waset) or in Coptus (Men-Nefer)....


Nisuts (AUS) prior to ours lived in Egypt, but ours does not.  Our calendar is not calculated from Egypt because Hemet (AUS) does not live there.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 23, 2010, 07:00:58 pm
Hotep!

No hostility at all :)

Explanations have been afforded as to the calendar used by the Kemetic Orthodox faith for our festivals :) That's all. We celebrate as a nation of faith on the dates appearing on our state calendar :) THat's just the way it is, for us as a nation. WHen and how Kemetic Orthodox people celebrate individually and additionally, and more so, when non-Kemetic Orthodox celebrate, is completely up to them. Always :D

I also have the work by Richard Parker :) good resource for scholarly explanations.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: ubenet on October 23, 2010, 07:21:17 pm
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
So truly what is correct? What is truth?


you are attempting to correct our practice.  you are the one who introduced the terms "actually" and "in actuality" to the discussion.  turning around and quoting pontius pilate when someone asks why your long-forgotten sources are better than ours is intellectually dishonest.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 23, 2010, 07:57:08 pm
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh,

To Ubenetsenu: I am not trying to correct your practices. What I am trying to understand is how everything flows into each other. It has been said: "From the outside it just looks like you have a problem with dates not falling on the same Gregorian calendar date, but we aren't talking about the Gregorian calendar so the two just plain don't have to match to be accurate. The Gregorian calendar is the Gregorian calendar, not the Kemetic calendar." This is partly what I am trying to get at. I personally do not use a Gregorian Calendar when I do not have to; I use an Egyptian one. To me it is not October 23rd; its the 4th Month of Akhet: the 7th day of Koiak (Ka'hr'ka) devoted to Sekhmet. Today, by this calendar, is a ceremonial day which is held in honor of Thoth (Thehuti) and upholding his knowledge.... interesting that we are having this discussion today...  

This al started because I mentioned Heru (Heru-Sa-Aset) being born on the 25th of December. Though, this would be the 2nd month of Peret: the 10th day of Mechir (Rekh-wr) devoted to Rekhur.  This is just how the Egyptian calendar fell onto the Gregorian Calendar. To the say to do not or never will match up to each other is a bit absurd in my opinion, they do match up; today date is the example that they do match up.

I understand that the rising of the star in Jolit determines your New Year celebration; I understand this. I understand this just as much as I understand that the Lunar cycle connected to Usir becoming hole once more depended on when a full moon would occur; and full moons always occur on different dates in different years. I understand you honoring the New Year in August, and honoring the Five Netjer we have been discussing during that time.  Though, the dates of their birth are not linked to stars rising or falling; there birth dates; so they happened when they happen.  That all i am trying to say here.

We ourselves make this topic more complicated then it needs to be, since we work off of two, sometimes three of four different calendars and we try to overlay them to make sense.  In ancient Kemet the rising of the star occurred in July.... Now in Jolit it occurs in August; that's truth, that fine. But, a date is a date. The birth of the Five Netjer happened when they happened... we can honor their birthdays whenever we desire, but they happened when they happened.  

Thoth (Thehuti) was the cause for the Five days to be created... He created them when he did; they exist in time when they existed... be that July 14th-18th or what-have-you.  




Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Setkheniitw on October 23, 2010, 08:18:47 pm
Quote
I understand you honoring the New Year in August, and honoring the Five Netjer we have been discussing during that time. Though, the dates of their birth are not linked to stars rising or falling; there birth dates; so they happened when they happen. That all i am trying to say here.


With all due respect, I know you think you aren't viewing this based on the Gregorian calendar, but it's clear to me that you are because they are recognized on the same day year to year on the Kemetic calendar.

The birthdates and other festival dates are based on the calendar which is calculated based on the New Year happening in August.  The calendar itself, and all the dates within it, shift.  A festival that takes place on, oh, the sixteenth day of the third month of Shomu, is a festival which takes place on the sixteenth day of the third month of Shomu, regardless of when that day is on a different calendar.  Looking at two different devotional calendars, that date is on June 14th one year and June 18th on another... but it's still III Shomu 16, and the festivals for III Shomu 16 are the same.  It doesn't matter that the Gregorian calendar date is four days apart because the Kemetic calendar date is the same.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Kheper on October 23, 2010, 08:21:57 pm
M Htp!

Speaking for myself alone, I would like to take a moment to clarify a few things.
I myself have nothing but great respect for the Nisut(AUS), as a spiritual teacher, an Egyptologist and as a human being.  I haven't called into question anything about her.  

What I have done is call into question the double-standard of asking for published works and not providing any in return.  Perhaps someone would be kind enough to post a link showing the calendar and the calculations used to come up with the dates?
If others have no problem accepting these dates without question, then more power to them.  But not all persons see it that way and in the spirit of scholarly debate, it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask that a published source (or a non-published one) be provided so that non-House of Netjer members might peruse it.  This will only reinforce the validity of of the argument being presented.

If I were a college professor and I told my students to believe whatever I say but provided no proof, how would it be taken?

Also nit-picking on someone's use of the English language shows a condescending attitude towards anyone who has a differing opinion.  Basically the OP can't be dis-proven completely, so such people resort to personal insults to redirect the conversation away from the topic under discussion.  Then they call into question the person's honesty while still not providing any facts to back up their argument.
What would this be called?

I will point out something someone far wiser than myself has said on another topic, but has the same application here.  Also I encourage everyone who has posted in opposition to the OP to re-read their own comments in this other topic.

  Tarot origins in ancient egypt (http://www.netjer.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=176848&page=5)  

In this other topic the House of Netjer members are asking for sources to be provided that they themselves may peruse.

Here in this discussion the same thing is being asked for, but HoN members have so far not provided any other than to say the Nisut(AUS) has said so.  Basically the same argument Almen had put forth.

Contradictory?  

You decide.

Senebty,
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 23, 2010, 08:35:30 pm
Em hotep :)

When someone furnishes a thesis and seems to perhaps expect that others should accept it, then that seems fair enough to ask for sources, so that readers/listeners can make up their own minds.

In this case, Kemetic Orthodox are not expecting anyone to accept what we are saying as truth for everyone. We are not even offering any "truth" at all--simply saying that for us, as the House of Netjer, as Kemetic Orthodox, we celebrate specific festival, New Year, in August, and that we do not specifically, as a faith, acknowledge a date of December 25th as the birthday of Heru-sa-Aset, and that we see the five Epagomenal days as the birthdays of Wesir, Heru-wer, Set, Aset, and Nebt-het in that order before our New Year. That is all.

That is what *we* do, and that is all we offer. If others hold to different dates that is their right and prerogative. No agreement need to exist in this specific matter of dates, except perhaps an acknowledgment of the difference.

Since we are not offering universal truth here nor are we  expecting that guests are *wrong* for using other dates, there is no issues except a reasonable discussion. By the same token, non-Kemetics can accept that Kemetic Orthodox might differ in matters such as festival dates. And it's all good.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Kheper on October 23, 2010, 08:40:17 pm
M Htp!

@ Kai Imakhu Sedjemes

*henu*

Very well said.  I agree completely.  I hope to get a copy of this calendar myself so that I might better understand everything.  Any idea where I might obtain said copy?

Senebty,

*henu*
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 23, 2010, 08:47:23 pm
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh,

Thank you Sedjemes, Kheper and Setkheniitw for enlightening me more on this subject. This is very interesting to me, and I suppose now that I take a moment and look into my beliefs, I have been basing everything off a Gregorian Calendar.  The star in question rose in July in antiquity, so that is when the new year start and the calendar goes on from there. Now, the star rises in August, and the calendar goes on from there.  My apologies for not truly seeing this correctly before. I suppose I need to do more of my own research on this subject. Thank you again for showing me this truth... I now step away from this book and close the cover.  
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 23, 2010, 08:51:18 pm
Thus, going by your August starting date, Heru-Sa-Aset was born on the January 26th. Third month of Peret: 11th day of Pamenot (Rekh-neds) devoted to the Netjer Amun-Ra. ;)

okay, enough... I'm done...
 
Senabty-Rh'ekh
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Setkheniitw on October 23, 2010, 08:53:11 pm
Quote
What I have done is call into question the double-standard of asking for published works and not providing any in return. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to post a link showing the calendar and the calculations used to come up with the dates?


The calendar is only available to people who have finished the Beginner's Class.

As Khai-Imakhu Sedjemes has pointed out, our festival calendar is meant for Kemetic Orthodox use and it is what we recognize as a faith, it is not necessarily meant to be the scholarly contradiction to all other festival calendars and it's certainly not meant to be the authority on all Kemetic worship.  If it were meant to supersede everyone else's Kemetic festival calendars I think it would be made public... but it's not.

That said, there's nothing about the Kemetic Orthodox calendar which prevents somebody from celebrating 25 December as the birthday of Heru-sa-Aset.  I don't feel the need to cite sources to justify my personal beliefs.  I do, however, require one before I recognize something as historical fact.  That doesn't mean it isn't, but we need sources before we accept it as such.

At the same time, I don't think it's unfair to cite something in a discussion like this with the Daily Devotions or something else published by Hemet (AUS).  Even though She is acting in a spiritual regard, She is an Egyptologist.  I may question citing them in a scholarly paper, but we aren't writing scholarly papers, we're debating in a religious forum.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 23, 2010, 08:56:12 pm
Hotep :)

One interesting thing with temples and calendars, at least in my personal opinion, is that what one temple might have celebrated most might have been different for another temple. For example, at Abydos, focus might have been on Osiris festivals, whereas at Karnak focus would have been on Amun and Amun-Re festivals. Perhaps not in reverse. And what appeared on the Memphis calendar or the Esna calendar or the Heliopolis calendar may not have matched one for the other, in every respect.

And then they had civil and lunar calendars--wheeee. Too bad they could not just have celebrated for every god every day. Sort of!
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: The Tai'awepwawet System on October 23, 2010, 09:16:41 pm
The calendar (without links in to Gregorian dates, as those have to be calculated per year) is available in the (published work ;P) The Ancient Egyptian Prayerbook if I'm remembering right.

The calculations aren't in it, which I think is pretty reasonable given it's not an academic journal of any kind, and she'd be basically giving anybody the tools to do what she does, which is poor business sense. But it may cite its sources. Having not looked closely at that end of the book, I can't honestly say.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Kheper on October 23, 2010, 09:39:44 pm
M Htp!

@ Taia   *blows kisses*

Yes indeed  thanks for pointing out the Kemetic Calendar is within the pages of the Ancient Egyptian Prayerbook, (sold to the public), starting on page 141.

This helps immensely.

Senebty,

Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: ubenet on October 24, 2010, 12:46:57 am
Quote from: Kheper
Also nit-picking on someone's use of the English language shows a condescending attitude towards anyone who has a differing opinion.  Basically the OP can't be dis-proven completely, so such people resort to personal insults to redirect the conversation away from the topic under discussion.  Then they call into question the person's honesty while still not providing any facts to back up their argument.
What would this be called?


excuse me? i don't think it's "nit-picking" or "personal insults" to point out that imsetra_imsety was telling us that our practices were incorrect and something else was ACTUALLY true.  i'm not an egyptologist, i'm just a shemsu, and it's not my place to share our calendar - but i also didn't come into a temple as a guest and tell the members they are wrong for celebrating when they do.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 24, 2010, 03:49:16 am
I apologize for saying 'actually'... though what I was interpreting as true was based off a system that is not used here.  The calendar runs the same; it's just the start sate that is off. Though, let me just make it clear that Netjer have told me that my beliefs were wrong in the past (Like when I was under the impression that Min was a child of Osiris) and with this they have never mentioned anything of the sort.  I ACCEPT what is believed here. I ACCEPT it :) The years starts when the star rises in Joliet in August... not in July like in antiquity.    
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Kheper on October 24, 2010, 05:54:15 am
M Htp!  *henu*

She (Imsetra) didn't tell the HoN members that their practice is wrong.  What she did do is point out how it was done in antiquity and then ask why it is done differently here.  It's the members here who saw it as an insult to have their beliefs supposedly questioned, when in fact the only ones who questioned it wasn't Imsetra but the ones to whom the question was directed.

As to the calendar, there is an example of it in the Ancient Egyptian Prayerbook, yet this wasn't brought up until the end of the thread.  You (Ubenetsenu) said Imsetra was dishonest (which is name calling because you provided no factual evidence to support your claim other than your own opinion), you nitpicked over her grammar for using a word (actuality) which was referencing an ancient practice and not the one used here (actually) and totally misinterpreted her reasons for asking.  Even Kai Imakhu Sedjemes clearly tried to calm things down a bit by showing that it's perfectly fine to have a differing belief and that many here even adhere to differing beliefs, yet still you continued with your blatant hostility towards someone who has shown nothing but respect for the members here in all her posts.



Senebty,
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 24, 2010, 06:43:52 am
Em hotep

It is possible to have read an inference of certainty that certain dates *should* be practiced by kemetics. It is also possible that posters do not intend to present that sense of "you do this wrong, this is the right way". That is why we have discussions and differing opinions offered :) It is one of the best things about having an open forum as adjunct for our temple--this is after all our outer court, where many can come to discuss and even debate. YAY :)

Even if someone clearly outright tells us what we do when we do it is *wrong*, that is still only just their own opinion, or conversely, even if we tell someone that what they are thinking about how or when something is done is wrong, that is only just opinions being offered.

Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 24, 2010, 06:54:59 am
Hotep!

Just to clarify, the calendar in the Prayerbook is not quite the exact same one that Kemetic Orthodox members receive. The Kemetic dates and feasts as we have them are in the Prayerbook but not other *additional* information which we receive as members.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Iaityinepu on October 24, 2010, 08:21:25 am
Quote from: Kheper
you nitpicked over her grammar for using a word (actuality)
Senebty,



I didn't actually notice anyone nitpicking over grammar in this thread..  I did, however, notice someone pointing out the use of Actuality (or Actually) will present the tone which suggests their opinion is more valid than the other being presented.  This is downright arrogant and rude.  

(I did notice the apology by Imsetra_Imsety, so this post is not meant to be having a go at her, only explaining to you, Kheper, that not everything is an attack against Grammar when it's brought up)  
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Senneferet on October 24, 2010, 08:50:21 am
Surely it is good to let us outsiders question things in the faith (as long as it is done respectfully) in order for us to learn and grow. It may end up with both parties having to agree to disagree but the truth will always win. Imsetra was very brave and humble to change her opinions and apologise.

On a more personal note, I'm not 100% bothered when festivals are celebrated as long as we have them. It's not worth our time arguing over little details. Netjer wouldn't want that. xxx
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Iaityinepu on October 24, 2010, 09:04:14 am
According to Ancient Egypt (2004), Wep Renpet ("literally the Opening of the Year" not the end of year as quoted by Imsetra_Imsety earlier in this thread) "was celebrated when the dog star Sirius, the brightest star in the sky, was sighted in the heliacal rising."

This marked the first day of the year (as it does for those celebrating KO according to the Nisut (AUS)'s guidance).  As the heliacal rising varies from year to year, so does Wep Ronpet.  It is according to Kemetic Orthodox beliefs that the Heliacal rising (with guidance from qualified astronomers) is calculated at the current place of residence of the Nisut.  In antiquity, that was in Egypt.  In Kemetic Orthodox, that is in Illinois.

Also according to Ancient Egypt (2004), the Kemetic Calendar was based around the agricultural cycle, with there being "three seasons, each of four months (each month averaged thirty days and was named after an important religious festival that took place during that period)."  This equalled 360 days.

It was stated in The Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2006) that the "Egyptian year was extended to 365 days - the solar year - by the addition of five days following the end of shemu."

With the above sitations, I can reasonably conclude that
a) Wep Ronpet is the first day of the year, therefore the Epagomenal days were added before this day.

b) Wep Ronpet has a roaming 'date' (in comparasion to the current, Gregorian Calendar), based on when the heliacal rising of Sirius (or Sodept, if you want to go by the Ancient Egyptian Name) occurs (depending on where you decide to conduct this calculation, based on personal beliefs, each date will be different, as the heliacal rising will occur on different dates - in the Gregorian Calendar - at different vantage points on the planet)

c) There are 360 'official' days in the Kemetic Calendar, that represent 3 seasons and 12 months - each consisting of 30 days (on average).

d) There were 5 days added to the END of the Kemetic calendar.

Based on my personal experience and gathering of knowledge, via discussions with the House of Netjer members, I believe that the above 4 points do not have any conflict with what is being presented by the House of Netjer, regardless of any 'lack of evidence' that is claimed.

If you want, I am sure I can hunt up more 'evidence' but I don't think you really require me to waste my time.


I don't believe that Imsetra_Imsety was trying to challenge our beliefs, but rather gather some information.  Although some of the wording did suggest that she believed her sourcing to be of more credibility than what was being presented.

I don't think ANYONE here was trying to say that the other person was wrong, but that there was a lot of confusion as to why there is so much diversity to the information gathered.  And with poor sourcing, this is made much more difficult.

There are a number of calendars in the world.  Some based on Lunar sources, some on Solar.  In Ancient Egypt (Again, according to Ancient Egypt (2004)) there were two calendars that co-existed.  One, the Civil Calendar, was based on the lunar cycles.  It was more accurate than the Solar Calendar, and even after the 5 Epagomenal days were added, there was still some difference between the two.

"The civil year gradually fell behind the solar year, moving backwards by one month every 120 years and only coming into alignment again after 1460 years.  As the civil calendar fell out of step with the seasons, festivals associated with the natural cycle (such as harvest) continued to be held in their correct season."  (page 330)

This also suggests that festivals were flexible as to when they were celebrated...


Sourcing:

Oakes, Lorna and Gahlin, Lucia, Ancient Egypt (2004). Anness Publishing Ltd : London

Strudwick, Helen, The Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2006). Amber Books Ltd : London


Please excuse me if my referencing style is not up to date with current 'accepted' styles.. but I am sure all the required details are there
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Iaityinepu on October 24, 2010, 09:11:13 am
Referencing in The Ancient Eyptian Prayerbook by Tamara L. Siuda (our Nisut - AUS) states one sourcing as:

Spalinger, A.
"A Religious Calendar Year in the Mut Temple at Karnak." in Recherches d'Egyptologie 44 (1993). pp. 161-183

As it's about the Religious Calendar, I'd guess that is a direct sourcing for the festival calander written in the Prayerbook.  Some of the other sources (There are MANY) may be in direct reference to the calendar, but as I don't own any of them, nor am I familiar with them, I can't destinguish this enough to post the sources directly here.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Rev. Sema'a on October 24, 2010, 09:19:56 am
Em hotep, all!

Quote from: Senneferet
Surely it is good to let us outsiders question things in the faith (as long as it is done respectfully) in order for us to learn and grow. It may end up with both parties having to agree to disagree but the truth will always win. Imsetra was very brave and humble to change her opinions and apologise.

On a more personal note, I'm not 100% bothered when festivals are celebrated as long as we have them. It's not worth our time arguing over little details. Netjer wouldn't want that. xxx


Certainly it is good for people to challenge and question, as long as everyone is clear about where they stand. If someone is not seeking the Kemetic Orthodox belief, but rather a discussion of different ideas and concepts, it's easy to come to a misunderstanding because the majority of people here are Kemetic Orthodox and are going to present the most prevalent practices thereof. This may seem to many as a mass shut-down of their beliefs, but in reality it is similar to a Protestant walking into a Catholic church and starting discourse. The majority of people there are likely to disagree and put forth what they believe to be evidence to the contrary, and the burden is on the Protestant to say "that's really interesting! i still do not agree for my own reasons, but respect what you believe." That's a very difficult sea to navigate, so conflicts like these crop up a lot. The Catholics (or Kemetic Orthodox, to leave the analogy behind) must also keep cool-headed and, if the questioner is using language that seems aggressive or argumentative, respectfully ask them to clarify their intent, and to change their tone if need be.

I also feel the need to point out that really, we are not a group made solely of scholars. We have a lot of scholars here, who should not be taken as the model of Kemetic Orthodoxy. I'm not a scholar in any way. I don't make my life's goal learning the most accurate way to interpret the wisdom texts, or the Negative Confessions, or the will and desire of the ancient people of Kemet. I want to be a therapist, and live in a cozy home with two cats and a dog. I talk to my gods and have a relationship with Them, more than I pore over academic tomes. I suspect, and if I'm wrong someone please correct me, that there are at least as many Kemetic Orthodox who are like me, as there are scholars.

On a personal level, I am noticing a lot of really heated language on everyone's part; let's all calm down and bring back Aretha's favorite seven-letter word. ;) On the Internet, there are certain words that are more likely to be interpreted as condescending because there's absolutely no body language or tone to prevent this. So please, if you are posting, just remember that such words (I cannot find the term I am looking for, for whatever reason, but it refers to words like "actually", "in reality", "really") have a high potential for presenting negatively in text. :)

Just my $0.02 on how we can keep this conversation going. I personally celebrate all festivals by the Nisut's reckoning, because I am Kemetic Orthodox and believe that to be the most accurate calendar for me. Everything else is academic curiosity. But I respect if you use something else, because really? I don't care what other people do with their calendars, since I don't have to do it. ;)

Senebty,
Sobeq
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Iaityinepu on October 24, 2010, 09:30:33 am
Quote from: Sobeqsenu
(I cannot find the term I am looking for, for whatever reason, but it refers to words like "actually", "in reality", "really")

Senebty,
Sobeq


Exactly the point I was trying to make.  Words like that, without coming from a very highly, knowledgeable source, come across as "downright arrogant and rude".
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Iaityinepu on October 24, 2010, 09:33:01 am
The other thing, that should be noted, whlst there are many academic sources about this kind of thing, in reality, Ancient Egyptian language is a Dead language, and it is quite possible (highly likely) that there are errors.  

So while the calendar used by the people of Kemetic Orthodox is right for US, does not necessarily make it void of errors.  Even if it is researched and compilled by a very respected and educated member of the faith.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tanebet on October 24, 2010, 11:10:32 am
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
Thus, going by your August starting date, Heru-Sa-Aset was born on the January 26th. Third month of Peret: 11th day of Pamenot (Rekh-neds) devoted to the Netjer Amun-Ra. ;)
 


According to Winfried Barta in his article: "Der 2. Mondmonatstag als Geburtstag des Gottes Horus" Heru-Sa-Aset's birthday is on IV Peret 28.
Barta's Sources are Parker's Calenders (p.59) and Chassinat's Edfou V (p. 352 + 356)
On that day His birthday was celebrated in Edfu, Esna and Dendera. The additional info given was, that the day coincides with the 2nd day of lunar month

Senebty
Tanebet
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tanebet on October 24, 2010, 11:27:40 am
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
(Like when I was under the impression that Min was a child of Osiris) and with this they have never mentioned anything of the sort.  I ACCEPT what is believed here. I ACCEPT it :) The years starts when the star rises in Joliet in August... not in July like in antiquity.


There are a few ties between Min and Heru-Sa-Aset.
Annie Forgeau has in her book "Horus-fils-d’Isis" a chapter about Min. And so does Sandra Sandri in her book Har-pa-chred.
Both books are on my desk but I didn't read them yet
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 25, 2010, 02:56:55 am
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh

Let me just begin by me saying that I am not a woman, I am a man... well not a true man yet ;) I am not sure as to how it came to be believed I was a woman, seeing as I was being referred to as 'he' in earlier posts? Anyway, this little plunder aside, may I continue with this discussion? And please, be assured there is not hostility within me in regards to what has been developing here in the last few days.

The main calendar I possess places the year as starting in July due to the fact that this is when the Nile (which it still does to this day in July) floods. Yes, it is very true that the literal translation for Wep-renpet (Uep-rnp't) does mean 'Open Year', though, it is after the month of Wep-renpet passes, does the five days of nothing (the birthdays of Usir, Heru-ur, Aset, Set and Nebthert) occur. Based off the calendar I have, this would be in July. Though, now I understand why it is celebrated in August; because it is due in part to the rising of the dog star seris. Though... regardless of Wep-renpet meaning 'Open Year', with it falling at the end of the calendar system, does not hinder my beliefs that it is not the beginning of the year.  Do we not celebrate the 'opening' of the New Year in the previous? I believe Wep-Renpet, the month, got its name due in part to the fact that it was the last month of the old year, thus, bringing forth the new year once it end.  The Egyptians never liked to view things as closing; they loved to view things as opening! Does one not open new doors once dead?  Does the sun setting not signify the opening of the night?  Beyond this, the festival of Opet was celebrated once the Nile had flooded; not before.  We know this to be true because we have the beautiful carvings of this festival in Karnak; depicting barks and large ships sailing the Netjer down the river; and yes, we also see the priests carrying the naos of Amun-Ra from his White Chapel in Karnak to what is now known as the temple of Luxor (which was still Karnak (Waset) in antiquity. So, what does this signify. That Opet was celebrated once the Nile flooded. This happens in Akhet. Akhet does not occur in the month of Wep-Renpet, it occurs in Thuthi (Tekh). Wep-renpet is still in the season of Shemu.  I would image your beloved Nisut has called your New Year Celebration Wep-Renpet because is has a nice ring to its name “The Opening of the Year” when Opet means ' the rising' . Thus, the Opet Festival occurs when the Nile rises in Akhet, the first month of the New Year.  

To Tanebet: Yes, I for a few years, I believed Min to be a child of Usir. Let me explain. There are a few bad versions of the birth of Heru which makes one believe he had a sibling when Aset blew the Breath of Life in Usir. Who this sibling is is never clear; no names or nothing like the sort. I knew Min was the Seed of Life; being the vital essence needed to create Life. Seeing as Heru was literally born through a oral act of intercourse; I believed Min to be this illusive sibling. My beliefs for this grew greater because Min is called the 'Fragrant Rush' or the 'White Lotus'.  Seeing as Heru was kept in the reeds of the Nile for protection, it seemed to fit that Min was there to; as a flower. Though, after a year or so of believing this, Min, along with Usir, Aset, Heru and Amun-Ra began to give me signs that this was not true. Aset said 'I am the mother of only one from Usir,' and Amun-Ra told me to 'Look towards Ipet-Isut for the truth on Min.'  So I did, and I realized that Min is not the Child of Usir; he is an aspect of Amun-Ra.  Thus, Netjer told me that my view of Min was wrong/incorrect.  Though, with the issue above (a subject that I have been exploring for over two years) Netjer have not once given me an inclination that I am incorrect.  Needless to say, I ACCEPT and UNDERSTAND what is belied here.  

Senabty-Rh'ekh
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tanebet on October 25, 2010, 03:27:11 am
Em hotep Imsetra-Imsety *henu*,

The Beautiful Feast of Opet or Ipet refers to the Goddess Ipet, a hippo Goddess. (J. Murnane: Opetfest In: LÄ IV, 1982, S. 574-579.)
following the LADD, Volume 1, p216, the meaning of IP is counting and not rising

Senebty
Tanebet
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 25, 2010, 03:37:37 am
Em-Hotep

Ipet: is not the mother of Usir, that is Nut. Ipet (an aspect or essence of Twaret) was a wet nurse for Usir as a child; and also when he was resurrected... she was said to have nursed him into health again.  

Ip indeed does mean to count. But the Opet festival does not literally mean 'rising' this is the word wbn (weben= raise something up) I must made a slight mistake above. The Opet festival comes form the word ik (Iket) which means come or coming forth.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tanebet on October 25, 2010, 03:49:16 am
Em Hoteo,


The full name of the festival was Heb-nefer-en-Ipet
(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opet-Fest)

I am sorry, but I do not understand where the conection to Iket comes from? Can you please exlpain?

thank you

Tanebet
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 25, 2010, 03:49:50 am
Also, just to clarify, during the New Kingdom (most notably under the reign of Ramesses II) the meaning behind the Opet Festival was changed to 'Secret Chamber' or more accurately: "The Festival of the Secret Chamber" (Heb Ipt). This was due in part to the tradition to move Amun-Ra and the other Netjers of Karnak from their chapels to Ipet-Resut, the southern temple at Waset or the temple of Luxor.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tanebet on October 25, 2010, 03:52:02 am
This doesn't explain how "Iket" comes into play.
Additionally I would like to see a source for your "secret chamber" meaning statement
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 25, 2010, 07:10:39 am
That is rather...softly dismissive, don't you think, Imsetra, to say that Rev Siuda simply decided to call New Year Wep Renpet because it has a nice ring to its name? Forgive me but please--the Nisut has a Graduate degree in Philology, i.e. Egyptian language, from the University of Chicago, and has worked and studied alongside many scholars including linguists in the field.

But also--Calendars from antiquity from Middle Kingdom through New Kingdom indicate that "New Year" is shown to be Day 1 of the 1st month of the first season of Akhet, with the Epagomenal days after the end of the 4th month of the third season of Shomu. See Temple Festival Calendars of ancient Egypt by Sherif El-Shabban, Pgs 10, pgs 29, 57.

Parker in his _Calendars of Ancient EGypt_ also discusses at length how the feast of wep renpet, opening of the year, is to be properly celebrated on 1 Akhet 1, the first day of the civil calendar (which he also on pg 47 explained as properly together with teh birthday of Re which was felt appropriate to the ancient Egyptians.) I note that Parker discusses the term wp rnpt as having several different uses, including it being an intercalary month in the lunar calendar, not merely civil.

In any event, based on research and study, Kemetic Orthodox celebrate the turn of our religious calendar on 1 Akhet 1, preceded by the five epagomenal days. In August.

Opet festival, which is a completely different festival, was celebrated a bit later in the season of Akhet, which was the Inundation. (the word we transliterate as "Opet" does not mean "rising." Nor did that festival have anything to do with the beginning of either lunar or civil year. Ipet was a deity called in some Theban theology the mother of Wesir. (Wilkinson's _Complete Gods and Goddesses_ and Hart-s Dictionary of Gods and Goddesses_
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Tanebet on October 25, 2010, 12:45:08 pm
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
The Opet festival comes form the word ik (Iket) which means come or coming forth.  


Would you have the hieroglyphs for me?
I checked Hannig's "Grosses Handwoerterbuch Aegyptisch-Deutsch" and "Grosses Handwoerterbuch Deutsch-Aegyptisch" but couldn't find the meaning you suggested

the meanings of ik are
* to bemoan
* to attack/to challenge
* to grub, to use claws

the words given for coming forth are
* pri
* bsi
* hnt

the words for coming are
* ii
* iwi
* hAi
* xpr
* spr
* nwi
* nAi
* nms
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Iaityinepu on October 26, 2010, 01:00:41 am
I will also repost my quote earlier, on Wep Ronpet:

According to Ancient Egypt (2004), Wep Renpet

Quote
"literally the Opening of the Year"  - "was celebrated when the dog star Sirius, the brightest star in the sky, was sighted in the heliacal rising."


These were not my words, they were the quoted words.  Wep Ronpet was NOT the last day or last month of the year.  It was the first one.
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 26, 2010, 04:33:13 am
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh,

I have been up now for the past three hours trying to figure this out... (it's now 3am here) Anyway, let me yet again apologize for my ignorance. As I mentioned in a previous post, all of my assumptions on these matters were coming from the fact that I was under the impression that my calendar, with a July 19th starting date, was correct. Season wise it is in alignment, I believe, with the calendar used here.

Iaityinepu... I do recall sending you the calendar I possess; so I would assume you would have realized why my assumptions were flawed. (the month known as Wep-Renpet in that calendar is called Mesore: falling at the end of that calendar) If I sift the dates in my calendar, moving it by approximately a month, the days, I believe, match up with your calendar used here. Though, I can only assume this seeing as I do not possess your calendar to use as a reference.

After more research I have come to know that Opet was celebrated not in the first month of the new year, but rather on the first days of the second month of Akhet (Thuthi or Tekh)... is that what the second month of Akhet is known as here?

Please realize that I have been working off rather old information. As mentioned in another thread here I do not have any of my books of journals with me in Mexico; they are still back home in the states.  I had a 'dry-period' for about a year where I had no (including the internet) resources at my disposal... I understand now that I am very behind on my studies. The whole reason why I am here it to learn the ways of HON. To see if what I know about Netjer and related ideals are what are understood here.  

I cannot recall where I came across the original sources which quoted the Opet Festival as meaning/signifying the 'Secret Chamber' though I did stumble across this website about an hour ago which makes mention of it:

http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Opet.html

As far as my belief around the meaning of Opet, it had come from several places... again, do not have the books with me (I know, I am a pathetic student) The word Ik (Iket) can also sound like (Ikpet) and means literally 'come in' I believe you can find the word in the dictionary of this old reference website I have, but I have not used this site for sometime now so I can't be to sure.

http://hieroglyphs.net/0301/cgi/lookup.pl?ty=en&ch=a&cs=0

I can tell you what the word looks like however: It beginnings with a goose, followed by the symbol for hill over the symbol for legs or move (looks like an upside-down V with feet) and it is sometimes followed by the letter T.

Again, I apologize once more for my ignorance: I have been getting a lot of stuff wrong lately... I need to listen more closely to what my patron Amun-Ra told me “Opening your mind's thought to the listener with hast will cause you much trouble.” Basically, I need to think hard about by thought before I share them; I need to study better.

Senabty-Rh'ekh. :)
Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Iaityinepu on October 26, 2010, 07:57:50 am
Okay, as I have both Calendars (the one you sent me and the HoN official festival Calendar), I can tell you:

The months are not named the same, although they may be the same name in Greek - for your calendar, Kemetic - for the KO one, as some I can identify the greek-kemetic corrolation.

Most of the months honour the same Name, although there were some discrepencies, and there are some months in the KO calendar that honour 2 names, whereas your source only names one.

Some, but not many of the festivals line up (according to Kemetic Dates, not Gregorian).

One thing that I did notice with your calendar, is that it is heavily written using the Greek translations of Kemetic words.  Not that this should change the details, however, because Djehuty is Thoth and a story about Djehuty and a story about Thoth should be about the same thing.

Nowhere in your calendar, can I find reference to Wep Ronpet, even via a search function.  The Official KO Calendar States Wep Ronpet as the "Kemetic New Year" and is stated as being the first date of the first month of the first season.

It is a shame that your calendar is not an original source (as in you've copied it from another source) with the publishing details attached.  Because without this information, I have no reason not to think you just copied/pasted/edited to suit your own beliefs.

Your calendar, unfortunately, means little to me, as I don't have any direct reference, nor are you a qualified person to produce a calendar.  While it may have some similarities to the Calendar used by this religion, it is very lacking in credibility.

My sources for this post are:
Imsetra_Imsety The Sacred Calendar Sent to me on Sep 17, 2010

Tamara L. Siuda The Ancient Egyptian Prayerbook (2009) Stargazer Design. New Lenox, IL:USA

Tamara L. Siuda Kemetic Orthadox Festival Calendar August 2010-2011 (Year 18) (2010) Stargazer Design. New Lenox, IL:USA


Title: Re: Christmas?
Post by: Sedjemes on October 26, 2010, 07:59:26 am
Hotep Imsetra

You are not the first to have referred to a calendar which shows Wep Ronpet in July and you may not be the last. You may be the first who so strenuously chose to tell us we were wrong ;)

The page at http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Opet.html which you have cited before was designed and written when she was alive by The WEsir Asetmeri, one of our House Akhu and my Aset sister.

The word "ipet" is translated by Faulkner's Middle Egyptian Dictionary to mean either "harem" or "southern sanctuary" or even "secret chamber of the temple." Hart's Dictionary of Gods and Goddesses reminds us that Luxor temple was called Ipet-Resyt, or Southern Sanctuary, and the Amun temple at Karnak was called Ipet-Swt.

The sanctuary of every single temple in Egypt, from the earliest through the Ptoelamic period temples like Dendera and Philae etc, had sanctuaries which were the darkest and smallest rooms, where only the chief priests of the temple might enter. So, that sorta makes them inner chambers, and definitely "secret" in a sense :) Of course, calling an entire temple the Sanctuary has its own brand of coolness :)

One last comment--for us, as Kemetic Orthodox, we are not "students" as much as, well, Kemetic Orthodox. We are not "studying" the temples or the festival calendars or details about different sites or even about specific gods--we very well *might* study those but out of a personal interest and curiosity.

What we do most is *live* our faith. We pray to our gods for hel[, we pray for ourselves and each other, we pray to our gods in thanksgiving for blessings, we try as best we can to be responsible citizens, responsible human beings, responsible Kemetic believers.  We try to help each other as best we can when we can. Studying has less to do with that spiritual life than more.

 
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