The House of Netjer, a Kemetic Orthodox Temple

[PUBLIC] About the Kemetic Orthodox Religion => [PUBLIC] Netjer (Our Gods & Goddesses) => Topic started by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 04, 2010, 10:27:53 am

Title: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 04, 2010, 10:27:53 am
What are anyones feelings on these?
For example, Ausar as somewhat cold or distant, Set as somewhat overzealous and too "pssionate" Iset as manipulating, Djehuti as long winded or arrogant/humorless, etc etc.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Padjaiemweru on January 04, 2010, 11:52:57 am
That's a big topic, anything in particular that you are looking for?

and welcome to the forums, by the way :D
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 04, 2010, 12:16:46 pm
No, just a general discussion of the sometimes less-than-perfect aspects of the Names.

Thanks, been here for a little while!
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: NiankhSekhmet on January 04, 2010, 01:08:39 pm
Em hotep Ara:

Unlike Wesetern religious society or Western occultism, we do not view the Divine as necesarily being "perfect" or "omnipotent" or even "omnicient".  They all seem to have their quirks and likes and dislikes, etc.  

To use my own Mother as an example, Sekhmet is viewed as being unreasonable, out of hand, dangerous, unpredictable, etc. At least that is what I was told about Her before She entered into my life, and I have to admit, when She did, I was a fair bit of intimidated (if that can ever be said to be possible!)   Certainly such percieved "negatives"  may be true in certain instances - or according to legend.

I just wonder how can we as people judge the temperament of beings Who are not us? What is "negative"? What is "positive"? That would be like making a judgement on people. Example, "You know what? I think so-and-so is a whiny, high maintenence pain in the neck and I don't even want to deal with them."  How fair is that?  We may not understand certain aspects or behaviours of individual people or even individual Names of Netjer, but it's with Them, it's all Netjer. Just because we can't wrap our heads around it isn't necessarily Their fault. ;)

God can very well squish us like a grape - but doesn't because God loves us. How we deal with each of the Names is an individual thing.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Sedjemes on January 04, 2010, 01:20:11 pm
Hotep!

Thing is, our gods are in fact not just any of those. Aset may be manipulative, but she is also charming, warm and loving (so say some of her children certainly), holds folks up to high standards, is wise---

Wesir, being of fertility and growth, is also I dare say very warm when need be---and i often think of Set as dispassionate---

all opposite qualities to those mentioned.

Because Netjer to us is vast, It encompasses many varied qualities and combinations thereof. So we try not to pigeonhole the gods--tough though that is for us since human beings love labels and niches.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 04, 2010, 01:23:36 pm
Ok, I feel this has been misconstrued,  (and misrepresented by me as well)no offense Niankh.

I guess "less then perfect" was a bad way to put it. I guess (maybe) a better way to put it is: what are anyones thoughts on the anthropomorphizations and humanizations of Netjer? Do you (whoever wants to answer) feel that these are truly aspects of the divine, and/or of the Names), or are they aspects we GIVE to them (or they give to themselves, or show of themselves) so that we can better communicate with them? Or are they truly aspects that are PART of them?

This is also something I have philosophically been rolling over in my mind a general way. On another thread there is talk of the "uncreated" and Apep. Or even Sekhmet is a good example. Is something "Bad" intrinsically (such as Apep, or the destruction of a large part of humankind by Sekhmet, at the creators will) or is it all a matter of viewpoint...?
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: NiankhSekhmet on January 04, 2010, 01:43:11 pm
Em hotep Ara:

I do confess to getting a little bit prickly whenever someone says "negative aspects of Netjer". I do apologise for having misunderstood you. You were rather brief in your original post and so trying to ascertain what it was you were saying was difficult for me. I do tend to like specificity to an extreme. ;)

That is the 64 million dollar question isn't it?  I think every person percieves of various Names and relates to Them in a personal way. Certainly the Sekhmet I experience is not the same as any of Her divined children or beloveds etc. or those who just like or dislike Her. To sort of apply our own personal filters on Them is just that....personal. You initially used Wasir - I don't get Him....at all. I try, but that particular Name of Netjer is more foreign to me than any other Name. Why that is,  I honestly do not know. It isn't that I think Wasir is "bad" or off-putting, I just simply don't understand Him.  I am not sure that I want to at ths point. I think I will wait a bit to try to understand Him more. Otherwise, I still respect Wasir very much.

To clarify, we do not view Apep as a Name of Netjer. That particular being is considered flat-out Uncreation. You do not want uncreation. That is against Life itself.  That being is senseless, unfathomable destruction of anything that IS and that being cannot ever be rectified to anything within the Created - ever. I honestly think that there is somehow out there this mistaken idea, mostly on the part of Western Occultism and the symbolist's view - that it is somehow equated with the Christian notion of a Devil figure, etc. That is most definitely not the case. It is a completely different thing altogether.

I hope that helps.

Senebty!
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 04, 2010, 02:03:27 pm
Hmm, I think I might still not be hitting at exactly the idea I'm trying to get at here....

I know that we will all experience them differently, and I certainly understand that Apep is not a "Name" nor do I think equating it to the "devil" is any kind of appropriate, I mean, I KNOW what it is....


I guess this line sums it up best: Are there intrinsic personality traits of the Names?

I guess it seems your answer to that would be, no, it's in your perception of them....is that about correct?
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: NiankhSekhmet on January 04, 2010, 02:10:43 pm
Em hotep Ara:

I think perhaps that this is just a question of our own particular communication styles being at odds. No harm, no foul. :)

I guess I would percieve Sekhmet's personality to be extremely direct; short, sweet, to the point. No punches are pulled, no flowery speeches, no mollycoddling - and most definitely no obfuscation  of any sort. She loves children and protects them. She is a healer and upholds and enforces Ma'at. She can be very loving and She can be the model of severity, depending. WHatever it is, definitely it is at all times appropriate. I guess that would be what I would construe as Her "personality" traits. Some find some of those things unnerving.

Maybe others can comment and give their perceptions and add their commentary to the mix and it may be a little more helpful for you. :)

Senebty!
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 04, 2010, 02:26:56 pm
Yes, seems we're horses of different colors! LOl....

Thank you Niankh, for your input.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Tahai on January 04, 2010, 02:57:27 pm
Em hotep, Ara.

Quote
I guess this line sums it up best: Are there intrinsic personality traits of the Names?


Do They have intrinsic personality traits?  I believe so.  Can I tell you what they are?  Nope.

Netjer is vast beyond imagining.  The pieces of Itself we are able to comprehend (Names) are vast to the very outer limits of our imagining.  How can we, as humans, possibly comprehend the intrinsic personalities of such beings?

All any one of us can tell you is how we percieve Them, and how They have been percieved by others historically.  From this we must make our best guesses about Their personalities.  

Personal gnosis is an important part of the Kemetic Orthodox faith, and I think you'll find, as you study us, that very rarely are there yes/no or black/white answers.  Quite often the answer to a question is 'both can be true.'

Hope this helps.

Blessings on your Journey.

Tahai
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 04, 2010, 03:15:10 pm
Thank you Tahai! That does help, yes.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: The Tai'awepwawet System on January 05, 2010, 10:36:38 am
I wish I could give input on negatives, but what can I say, Wepwawet is perfect ;) Dontcha'll know it.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Sedjemes on January 05, 2010, 11:40:45 am
*grinning*

Hotep Ta'ia. Spoken well as his daughter yep yep yep :D
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Khesretitui on January 05, 2010, 01:42:29 pm
I can tell you about my experience with Set, but you'll discover a wide variety of opinions about him. He's got several threads dedicated to this concept if you look about.

For me, Set is exacting. He is demanding. He is also brutally literal and will give you *exactly* what you ask for if he doesn't tell you "no" outright. Ask him for strength, for instance, and in my experience he will ensure that you have ample opportunity to develop said strength on your own.

He has never been a happy, fluffy, or humorous god to me -- at least not in the conventional sense. This unnerves some people.  The kindest thing he's ever told me is, "I'm impressed." As for the harshest thing...well...when people compare him to a drill sergeant, the comparison is pretty accurate.

His harshness earns him a negative reputation among some folks, but he doesn't seem to care or to worry about rectifying it. That bothers some people. He does all the "dirty jobs" that need doing because only he can do them. He's less a rockstar and more some kind of post-apocalyptic vigilante biker who Gets [Expletive] Done.

He's also, in my experience, a god of vast primal power and deep, cosmic antiquity. The savage, the primitive, the cold of space, and the mind-crushing complexity of the cosmic balance itself are all wrapped up in him. He can make your head hurt.

Whether that's positive or negative I couldn't say. I tend to find myself unable to deal in binaries with my First Father. He is the enemy of boundaries, after all, and will defy most any expectations you have.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 05, 2010, 01:52:16 pm
Thank you Khesretitui! In my experience, I do not find Iset to be a "loving mother goddess" as she is often depicted in Neo-Paganism and some "Isis" groups....she has been *kicking* my arse! She has very "dark" aspects and can be very *serious*, not to mention intimidating. And as Udjit aslo talks with me, I understand completely the concept of having your head hurt by a Name! Her age and primordial energy sometimes makes my teeth ache....

What do you mean binaries?
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Khesretitui on January 05, 2010, 01:56:35 pm
A binary is something that is either one thing or the other. Black and white, good and bad, on or off, etc.

So when I say I can't easily apply binaries to Set, it means he is not easily classified or pigeonholed as "good" or "evil" or whatever you please. He's more shades of gray than black or white, if that makes sense.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 05, 2010, 02:00:44 pm
Ohhh ok, like polarity....same sort of thing then.

Totally makes sense to me, I've been a "gray" sort of person all my life...

As a daugher(? does Sat mean daugther or child, I thought it meant daughter so please excuse if incorrect)  of Set, can you extrapolate on the Set animal? Or is that covered elsewhere here?
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Khesretitui on January 05, 2010, 02:09:15 pm
Yes, I'm a daughter of Set. Sat means daughter, Sa means son. The -t suffix is a feminizing element in the language, if I recall correctly.

The Set-animal is interesting. I have the good fortune to maintain a relationship with a netjeri (minor spirit) who chooses to take the form of a Set-animal. He is particularly instinctive and primitive in nature.

As I recall, the question of the Set-animal has been put to Set before, and he has indicated that it is not, and never was, a real animal. It's a fantasy beast. Perhaps someone else recalls that incident better than I do, though.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 05, 2010, 02:18:04 pm
Ah yes, I knew the t was feminine, I coulda answered my own question, doy....

Hmmm interesting. I've also heard it postulated that a few of the animals seen in egyptian art, but unknown in reality could possibly be extinct animals...
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Devo on January 05, 2010, 02:28:18 pm
According to Te Velde, they don't really know what the Set beast is. Most think it's a fantasy animal- a bunch of animals all put together. So who knows. Te Velde mentions a couple other animal forms that Setekh takes, including a type of griffin.

As to the original question, I've found that the gods have a variety of personalities- they each act differently, and as always, might act differently to different people. I don't necessarily say this is due to their vastness (though to say they aren't vast would be wrong) but just like anyone- we act slightly different to other people.

It's like saying both Jim and Pete know Johnny. Jim and Johnny are great friends, Pete can't stand Johnny. We all perceive eachother differently. So I guess I just kind of look at it from that perspective when people view a god differently.

I hope that I remotely understood the question.
-Devo
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 05, 2010, 02:46:15 pm
Good analogy Devo, I hadn't thought of it that way actually...
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on January 05, 2010, 03:25:06 pm

Tahai:
Do They have intrinsic personality traits? I believe so. Can I tell you what they are? Nope.
Netjer is vast beyond imagining. The pieces of Itself we are able to comprehend (Names) are vast to the very outer limits of our imagining. How can we, as humans, possibly comprehend the intrinsic personalities of such beings?

All any one of us can tell you is how we percieve Them, and how They have been percieved by others historically. From this we must make our best guesses about Their personalities.

Personal gnosis is an important part of the Kemetic Orthodox faith...

Ara:


Thank you Tahai, that hit upon a thought of mine on this subject. That is, that they may well have personal attributes, that are/can be "set" as it were, but that they may reveal basically what they wish to reveal, to whom they wish..

I wonder if the ancients working with them felt the same...
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Rennie1989 on January 05, 2010, 04:44:00 pm
I have to agree with you entirely, Devo.

There are always opposites to personalities, introvert and extrovert, aggressive and passive, logical and creative.  I don't see negatives in people, I just see their personality.  People say my boyfriend is aggressive but he just stands up for himself.

Even though I have not gone through RPD I do have a connection with both Sekhmet and Thoth.  Sekhmet is tough, She doesn't like to be fooled around, whereas I see Thoth as being more relaxed.  Even though he is a wise Gentleman I see Him as being humourous too, it takes a charisma and knowledge creates good jokes!
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: NiankhSekhmet on January 05, 2010, 09:43:39 pm
Quote from: Rennie1989
I have to agree with you entirely, Devo.

Even though I have not gone through RPD I do have a connection with both Sekhmet and Thoth.  Sekhmet is tough, She doesn't like to be fooled around, whereas I see Thoth as being more relaxed.  Even though he is a wise Gentleman I see Him as being humourous too, it takes a charisma and knowledge creates good jokes!



Oh I don't know. I think Sekhmet has quite a sense of humour, even if it is a little wry at times. Some of the things She says are quite amusing in their irony. ;-)

Djehuty on the other hand, His sense of humour I have not borne witness to yet - but I suspect it to maybe be a bit dry.

Senebty!
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Tawaisenu on January 05, 2010, 10:18:06 pm
Quote from: NiankhSekhmet

Djehuty on the other hand, His sense of humour I have not borne witness to yet - but I suspect it to maybe be a bit dry.

 


Just a little bit. ;)
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Mesetibes on January 05, 2010, 10:26:59 pm
Quote from: NiankhSekhmet

Djehuty on the other hand, His sense of humour I have not borne witness to yet - but I suspect it to maybe be a bit dry.


Hotep KI Niankh!

There's a reason I don't ask him for a respite in schedule anymore.

Last time I asked him for a bit of ease in my schedule, He did so by giving me a massive back spasm that had me on the floor because that was the only way I was comfortable.

I missed not only my religions class, but I also missed my ancient greek culture class, my dance class, an 8 hour shift AND my tattoo appointment.

His humour can be dry indeed. :-P

Senebty!
~Maret
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Tahai on January 05, 2010, 10:38:49 pm
I can see Djehuty with a dry sense of humor! I think Set has a wicked dry humor as well as a raunchy one.  Sekhmet-Hethert seems to always be smiling or laughing, IME.  I'm not sure yet if She's got some joke I'm not privy to, or if She's just thrilled with life.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: NiankhSekhmet on January 06, 2010, 12:09:17 am
There was one time when Sekhmet appeared in Saq at the healing ceremony and She and I had an exchange and we just LAUGHED...I think it was at Nakht's expense. In fact, I am pretty sure it was. For whatever reason, Sekhmet seems to get a real kick out of playing psych with the Set kids!  I'm not quite sure why that is. Maybe it's just because She can! ;)

Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on January 06, 2010, 12:52:52 am
My Mother Tefnut can seem distant and uninterested at times, because She's a very cosmic-scale, big-picture kind of Name. She's actually very caring and intense, but being Her child, it's best to remember She's not always quite "there" when it comes to the human definition of "there" in a spesific space and time :P She also keeps forgetting people can be pretty fragile and clueless. It's not that She is very demanding or expects more than people can manage (though at times it might seem that way), She just tends to forget we're not quite as strong and capable as, say, Her Netjeri :D
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Raheri on January 06, 2010, 09:18:37 am
Quote from: Tahai
I can see Djehuty with a dry sense of humor! I think Set has a wicked dry humor as well as a raunchy one.  

I have always seen Djehuty with a sarcastic wit about Him. I also tend to think of Him as a bit of a smart ass; but hey if you are the god of wisdom, I guess you can be.
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Senedjem on January 07, 2010, 05:17:30 am
Em Hotep!

Djehuty comes across to me as the intellectual one of the names, kind of a sense of humor, and definitely picky. Just in my experience.

Senebty
Title: Re: "Negative" aspects of the Netjer
Post by: Rapture on August 03, 2011, 01:00:00 pm
I've only just come upon this thread but I'd like to put in my thoughts anyway. I've had interactions with various of the netjeru but I've never thought of any one of them having 'negative' aspects. Sometimes they disappear or say things I don't understand, or whatever, but they are in some respects like us, and if they want the interaction with me (which I'm going to assume they do since they are around) then I take them as they are. Some are more attentive, some ask a lot from me, some disappear every now and then when I want to ask them something, but on the whole they have all been supportive and helpful in different ways.
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