The House of Netjer, a Kemetic Orthodox Temple

[PUBLIC] Kemetic Orthodoxy General Forums => [PUBLIC] All Things Egypt: Ancient & Modern History and Culture => Topic started by: Alman on September 16, 2010, 02:11:49 pm

Title: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 16, 2010, 02:11:49 pm
I have Done some work on showing how the Tarot originated in Ancient Egypt. And want to put it out there. First stop without further ado is chaps 144-150 of the BoD - I use Budge Saite recension and have Falconerv( Brit Museum) to help me where you will find the original Tarot in it s entirety. Except for the suits which are in the vestibule of the inner Temple at Philae. I bring it all out in due course.
  Tarot in Egypt (http://www.followersofhorus.comule.com/TarotofEgypt.html)
Still writing this site
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Sedjemes on September 16, 2010, 03:31:20 pm
Hotep

Where do you find the inscriptions from Philae, I would be very interested in seeing the original glyphs?

I am curious, have you read _THe Ancient Egy[tian Books of the Afterlife by Erik Hornung translated by David Lorton, which has a section talking about the BOok of Gates, which seems to be what Budge refers thereto. Also, Faulkner's translation of the Book of Coming Forth by Day, the most current, I think, translation to date, also discusses the "Saite recension" on pg 141 of the book published in 1998.

Senebty
Sedjemes
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 16, 2010, 07:22:33 pm
Thank you Sedjems - I have been there and got some pics
  [img:left]http://www.followersofhorus.comule.com/Isisvesti.jpg[/img] The cobras on the left are titled '14 Cobras greatly feared'. To the right is another freize '14 Bulls great roarer' ( out of shot). Elsewhere in the tiny antichamber is " 14Lions lord of the Spear " and " 14 Hawks Lord of the knife " Each carving is 14 identical pics. I first heard about them in some archeologist book. They are in my view he original suits of the minor arcana. I will unravel the deductions over the next posts. Had poor camera - my bulls are blurred.
Budge is most voluminous with many  extra renderings of the same material (Nu, Ani etc). Faulkner has translated more words so both are useful. Budge also has much extra material and comment  -invaluable.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Sedjemes on September 16, 2010, 07:31:57 pm
I see :)

Interesting. I don't agree with your findings, but that's ok. It is still all very interesting :)
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Wolf_Cub on September 16, 2010, 09:22:42 pm
A deck of cards had its origins in ancient Egyptian stone tablets. Life is beginning to resemble anime...
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on September 16, 2010, 11:01:52 pm
I find it to be plausible that the 'idea' for tera cards might have come from these inscriptions... though the true meaning of the inscriptions were most definitely misinterpreted. For example: "And the Osiris N (decease's name) will rise from his tomb and live forever and ever..." this did not mean the mummy was going to come back to life, it meant the mummy's Ba.  

PS... I know what you mean Wolf Cub.  I had a friend who back in the six grade was convinced that Yugio came straight from Egyptian carving. LOL!
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 17, 2010, 11:41:53 am
Sedjemes - you need to be patient with the argument as I present it in the coming weeks. However an interesting and very recent discovery - if you look at Trump 21 you will see 4 animals round the wreath. Oddly enough these are not wands, cups, swords and pentacles as you might expect but  bulls, lions, men and eagles.
However the next piece is chaps  149 and 150 to connect the book of the dead with the Minor Arcana and the Temple of Philae.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on September 17, 2010, 01:33:18 pm
I think we can all agree it sounds like an interesting theory. I personally don't understand/see how you've made those connections, but everyone's perspectives are different.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: NiankhSekhmet on September 17, 2010, 04:13:58 pm
Most tarot professionals, no matter how enticing the lure of putting tarot's roots in ancient Egypt, will disagree with your findings. I once thought as you did as far as the origins being in Ancient Egypt, but the more research I did on both sides, the more I am convinced that you just cannot simply overlay one system on top of another.

Your research sounds interesting, and I would love for it to be that simple. The symbols are not consistent between Eastern and Western models. I look forward to seeing your entire thesis and how you end up presenting it. I do not doubt your sincerity. However, I do admit that I am still a little skeptical.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 17, 2010, 06:47:48 pm
It is important, too, to articulate your arguments clearly. The Western rhetorical tradition, with its roots in Classical oratory, requires that we assert our point, provide the full body of our evidence, and interpret that evidence clearly for our audience.

Should any of that be missing, it is natural for the audience to feel that the argument is incomplete regardless of how the writer or speaker may feel about it.

Thus, I would recommend presenting all of your data at once and with substantial explanation.

I will admit my skepticism in the matter, but I certainly welcome your evidence and your interpretation thereof.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: ubenet on September 17, 2010, 08:57:39 pm
Quote from: Alman
Sedjemes - you need to be patient with the argument as I present it in the coming weeks. However an interesting and very recent discovery - if you look at Trump 21 you will see 4 animals round the wreath. Oddly enough these are not wands, cups, swords and pentacles as you might expect but  bulls, lions, men and eagles.
However the next piece is chaps  149 and 150 to connect the book of the dead with the Minor Arcana and the Temple of Philae.


i'm not sure why you think it's odd or recent that the world card has a man, a bull, a lion, and an eagle surrounding it.  those are the traditional depictions of the four evangelists:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Setkheniitw on September 17, 2010, 09:15:55 pm
Quote from: Wolf_Cub
A deck of cards had its origins in ancient Egyptian stone tablets. Life is beginning to resemble anime...

Zing!


I have heard this theory before, but I have yet to see any sort of side-by-side comparison that suggests the Tarot was substantially based on any ancient Egyptian divination system or body of art.  I am interested to see what you've come up with.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 18, 2010, 06:51:53 am
 Here is a bit more. Unfortunately I have to drip feed you  in a forum. We now look at chap 149, which has exactly 14 divisions of Sekhet Aaru or the Elysian fields. I have put the chap. in colour.   Minor Arcana (http://www.followersofhorus.comule.com/TarotMinorArcana.html)  Does the mystery essence etc correspond with the Modern Tarot -earily - yes.
Are they numbered -Yes 1-14 in Egyptian.
  [img:left]http://www.followersofhorus.comule.com/aatsfull.jpg[/img]  But there are no 4 direction here so how do we get them to 14 x 4 to correspond with suits in Philae. Well now chap 150 which is shows 15 Aats. In fact they are not numbered and one  is most likely a chapter heading. The most important bit is however the 4 little snakes at he head which  all interpretors with no axe to grind consider to  be the 4 directions. So QED for the minor Arcana.
     But you will say -where are the Major Arcana? If what you say is wholly true then they must be in these chapters 'Entering the House of Osiris ' Yes several versions - 21 secret pillars in the house of Osiris chaps  149 -150. The 22 second is the fool already  recognised from early the 0 card so just in Egypt a robed figure with a waser staff and sometimes the missus.
I am really sorry about the drip feed and will public one single long article for public access.
I knew about the animals in the old testament I think there are also men serpents bulls and lions but no numbers. On balance I would not attache a great significance to its place on the 21st card  but remember these 4 animals look like they came from Egypt as did the hymn to Ra and other bits scattered throughout the Christian Bible.
However the next bit is analysis of the 21 trumps or the Secret  pillars in Abydos ritual.. So take a deep breath and be prepared to look at the evidence with an open  mind.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Setkheniitw on September 19, 2010, 12:53:43 am
I am more familiar with the imagery on the Tarot than the inscriptions you're referring to, so consider this post a set of inquiries from an obligate skeptic.

I want to know where you are getting the idea that bulls, lions, serpents, and hawks correspond to the four suits of the Tarot.  I am reading on your site (I assume it's yours, anyway) this:
Quote
Wands, Cups Swords and Pentacles, how do they equivocate to Bulls, Uraei(serpents), Lions, Hawks. I leave this to you.

I am curious to learn why you think they correspond with each other if you don't know which corresponds to which.  The only similarities I can see on the surface here are that there are four of them.  That is not substantially similar to me.  A lot of things come in fours, and while we humans are old pros at shoehorning concepts from one culture into another, it's not necessarily causal.

Quote
The most important bit is however the 4 little snakes at he head which all interpretors with no axe to grind consider to be the 4 directions. So QED for the minor Arcana.


Do you have a citation for that?  Your pictures are very small and so I can't see them very well, but nothing about them screams "four directions" to me.  I'm not saying they're not (I am an obligate skeptic but I understand a lot of things represent the four directions that don't look like it at first glance), but I would like the opportunity to see that there are people out there who actually say this other than you and your group.

To be honest I only single this out because I consider statements like "[interpreters] with no axe to grind" to be suspicious.  It strikes me as very "everyone has an ulterior motive except us," which I don't think is appropriate.

Quote
On balance I would not attache a great significance to its place on the 21st card but remember these 4 animals look like they came from Egypt as did the hymn to Ra and other bits scattered throughout the Christian Bible.


As Ubenet said, there is already a traditional explanation in place for card 21 to have those figures without delving into ancient Egypt, especially considering they aren't actually the same figures.  I also feel that they only look like they come from Egypt if you are dead set on believing they do.

The iconography on Tarot decks strikes me as more Christian than ancient Egyptian, excluding later variations on the symbolism by people who either believed or manufactured the belief that they originated in ancient Egypt.  At that time it was popular to attribute Egyptian origin to things because quite frankly nobody could understand hieroglyphs and it was easy to get away with it... so words such as Tarot and Ouija were explained away with "Oh, it's an ancient Egyptian word."

Quote
So take a deep breath and be prepared to look at the evidence with an open mind.

I certainly will, but please do not take our skepticism as narrow-mindedness.  One cannot be so open-minded that they lose all critical thinking.  Sorry if my tone here is a little rough looking, as that's not my intent.  I am actually quite curious to see what associations you have made with the major arcana, which I am much more familiar with than the minor arcana.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on September 19, 2010, 06:00:09 pm
I would also like to know where you are getting the majority of your information as well, most of it seems like guesswork: This looks goo here, so I'll place this over here because it sounds go with this info over here.... While this all sounds like a good idea for a harry potter style book, it just does not seem to hold much substantial ground.

Also, I would like to know how you can beginning to connect these ancient symbols from antiquity with the more European symbols of traditional tarot cards.  And, with your citation of the four snakes representing the four directions, well I would honestly have to say you are mistaken with this idea.  In Egyptian funerary texts, the four snakes situated above one another does not represent directions, either represents the power of 'a' snake; or it is the representation of He Who Shall Not Be Named; or an aspect of him.  

Also, as it was mentioned above, the words tarot and Ouiji are not from the ancient Egyptian language.  The word Ouiji does not come close to meaning anything, and the word tarot only comes close to one word which is tr3 (pronounced T'i-ra) which translates to meaning season.  Example: T'ra-mu-Akhet... in the Season of Akhet.        

[img:center]http://i52.tinypic.com/16lfs03.png[/img]
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 19, 2010, 06:13:57 pm
Alman: Please include a list of works cited (also known as references or a bibliography). You information is fascinating, but it is difficult to follow your points without knowing what sources you use.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 19, 2010, 06:37:43 pm
1/ Both Budge and Faulkener 2 of the fourmost scholars of th 20th centuary consider this to be so. The 4 rudders of heaven is also part of this ritual or teaching. Bet thing is get BoD from library if you are not an AE fan- this site is an AE spiritual site - which is why I am posting here.
2/ I am not shoehorning anything  -you will have to find the unknown medeival authors to find out. What texts they had I can only guess. But the libraries of Islam in North Africa and Egypt were very vaste. They translated anything and everything while Xtians burned and destroyed.
3/  Now four a real piece of shoe horning. If I turn to No15 of the Tarot you will know what it classically looks like
Here is the 15th Pylon. Homage 15th pillar of the still heart, I have made my way I know your name etc - Fiend red of hair and eyes who  comes forth by night and chains the fiend in his lair.
Waite rider version here http://wapedia.mobi/en/File:RWS_Tarot_15_Devil.jpg
you no who of course.
now do a stars wars odds evaluation of that happening by chance
Here is another
Homage ninth pillar - Lady of Strength, she who is in the front who gives birth to her lord.
  [img:left]http://www.followersofhorus.comule.com/9pillar8.jpg[/img]  Yes the number is 11 in Tarot Marseilles or 8 elsewhere  We just note how the medieval man neatly rephrases the drawing to artistic effect but leaves he meaning  quite intact. This is one of only 12 known graphics of this chapter (1st 12)
The chapter graduates in Egypt and normal Tarot, so that 21  is the exit card to the minor Arcana which is why the  4 animals are significant - it suggests the author had some idea what the original  suits were.
Are your pleas for a Xtian Tarot heard by yourself. Or Was it invented by gambling lotharios to pass the time. To this day Xtians and gamblers are  equally horified by the Tarot and it is bought in its millions by Pagans.
If you can open an Eye on this you will fly up into  the sky and see Ra - if you cannot you will have to travel the bumpy road or another road.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Setkheniitw on September 19, 2010, 07:27:00 pm
Okay, I think I'm on the same page here.  I have a copy of the pylons in front of me and two decks of Tarot cards.  And I still respectfully disagree.  A side-by-side comparison does not sufficiently dazzle me into thinking the Tarot was invented with the Book of Coming Forth by Day in mind.  That doesn't mean I disagree with using the Tarot as a reflection tool, even in a Kemetic context, but I see no actual historical connection.

Quote from: Alman
1/ Both Budge and Faulkener 2 of the fourmost scholars of th 20th centuary consider this to be so. The 4 rudders of heaven is also part of this ritual or teaching. Bet thing is get BoD from library if you are not an AE fan- this site is an AE spiritual site - which is why I am posting here.

Where?  Saying "Budge and Faulkner said it" is not a citation.  I want to know what exactly they said that led you to this conclusion and where they said it.  I should also mention that not everybody here is a fan of Budge.

I said absolutely nothing about not being a "fan" of ancient Egypt, only that I am more familiar with the images of the Tarot than the particular inscriptions and works you are referring to.  I am a Shemsu of the Kemetic Orthodox religion.

Quote from: Alman
2/ I am not shoehorning anything  -you will have to find the unknown medeival authors to find out. What texts they had I can only guess. But the libraries of Islam in North Africa and Egypt were very vaste. They translated anything and everything while Xtians burned and destroyed.

Can I please request that you not refer to Christians as "Xtians?"  I'm not a Christian, but I consider it rude.

I also think it's very suspect to start talking about unknown authors and destroyed texts when I've asked you to tell us where you're getting your information.  You are giving an incomplete answer which is not going to work if you are trying to change minds here.  If you do not have an actual, non-destroyed source telling you that these four animals each correspond to those four card suits, why do you feel they do?  I want to read your opinion on this.

Quote from: Alman
The chapter graduates in Egypt and normal Tarot, so that 21  is the exit card to the minor Arcana which is why the  4 animals are significant - it suggests the author had some idea what the original  suits were.

Or it suggests that they were familiar with the other contexts in which those four animals were being used--by Christians--at the time period in which Tarot was invented.

Quote from: Alman
Are your pleas for a Xtian Tarot heard by yourself. Or Was it invented by gambling lotharios to pass the time. To this day Xtians and gamblers are equally horified by the Tarot and it is bought in its millions by Pagans.

There are no pleas here, only simple history.  Just because we use Tarot as a divination system doesn't mean it always was.  Its adoption by occultists, pagans, and new agers means absolutely nothing with regard to its history.  Furthermore, you are generalizing Christians, among whom many are Tarot readers (some recently have even been using it as an evangelistic tool because of its obvious Christian symbolism).

Also I think you are mistaking my intentions here.  Just because I understand Tarot to have been invented as a playing card game does not mean I downplay its significance as a religious and spiritual tool.  You have to understand that when they were invented, life was more saturated with religious symbolism... so it's not at all shocking or weird to see religious concepts molded into art on something we would consider so mundane and everyday.

Can I ask what you have against Christians that you are so resistant to the idea that maybe Tarot was invented by them?


Finally, if this discussion grows in intensity too much I'm afraid I will have to respectfully duck out of it.  There is a point at which even simple debate can become mean-spirited and I don't want to be a part of that.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 19, 2010, 07:36:57 pm
Quote from: Setkheni_itw

Where?  Saying "Budge and Faulkner said it" is not a citation.  I want to know what exactly they said that led you to this conclusion and where they said it.  I should also mention that not everybody here is a fan of Budge.


Indeed. I have made the same request. Please provide your audience with complete citations. This includes the title of the book; the author; when, where, and by whom it was published; and the page number(s) of the relevant passages. All scholarly work requires this material in order to be considered viable. Otherwise it is at best mere hearsay and rumor. At worst it is plagiarism to fail to give credit where credit is due another.

Quote from: Setkheni_itw

I also think it's very suspect to start talking about unknown authors and destroyed texts when I've asked you to tell us where you're getting your information.  You are giving an incomplete answer which is not going to work if you are trying to change minds here.  If you do not have an actual, non-destroyed source telling you that these four animals each correspond to those four card suits, why do you feel they do?  I want to read your opinion on this.


Precisely, brother. Thus far I remain unconvinced, and with each dodge and apparently condescending one-off, I become less likely to be convinced.

Mr. Alman, all that has been requested is the location of the material from which this assertion was derived. Only when we have this information can we engage you in scholarly debate about such matters. To assert that you have access to some manner of secret knowledge and to then fail to supply that knowledge does not suffice, based upon my training, for academic argumentation.

All that said, I request one more time that you provide your sources to us according to the aforementioned guidelines. It is not overmuch to ask, and I would request as much from anyone else (and do).
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on September 19, 2010, 09:35:25 pm
This whole thing is beginning to bother me.  If you (Alman) are trying to preach that the 'idea' for tarot cards came form ancient Egyptian glyphs portrayed on temple wall, I might lean towards you, though I would still be very hesitant in accepting it as an absolute.  First, 'playing' cards in general were not even around until sometime during the late 14th cen. and did not arrive in Europe till after the crusades to the Middle East.  The first tarot cards originated in either France or Italy.... for more information on tarot cards history see this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot

Now, it may say here that playing cards were introduced to Europeans in Egypt, but the invention is Arabian, not Egyptian.  Plus, the lure of ancient Egypt became great after the French Crusades ran through the country.  They were dazzled by the mysticism of the ancient ruins and mesmerizing glyphs so... they brought the lure of the Orient and the splendors of Pharaoh back with them to Europe.  People became fascinated with the art and culture of the Middle East and Egypt, and it quickly became plastered through European media and culture for the next 300 years.

Again, I will say that I can believe that the 'idea' for tarot may have come from the unknown and mysterious glyphs of ancient Egyptian temples and tombs, but tarot is by no means an ancient Egyptian item.

Plus, many of the temples in the state they are today were in ruin 500 years ago.... for example, here is a picture of Karnak from just 100 or so years ago....

  [img:left]http://www.visiongallery.com/images/VINTAGE/anonymous/Anonymous,%20Temple%20of%20Amon,%20Karnak.JPG[/img]  

See how much we repaired it, that even includes the glyphs on the walls. Oh... here is a photo I found of Philae from the 1920's... So I would guess it looked even more worse for ware back in the 1400's when the French first explored it.

  [img:left]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ut2djuT8OYk/SvbX4SIBX4I/AAAAAAAABj4/-4BxKzHMUp0/s640/16.jpg[/img]  

  [img:left]http://www.lifeintheholyland.com/images/matsonsr/Philae,_first_pylon_of_Temple_of_Isis,_mat01580sr.jpg[/img]  

Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Isisenu on September 21, 2010, 06:06:08 am
Everybody needs to calm down a bit...this argue reminds me on my first days on this forum, when I asked some people from here to prove me with same kind of arguments about building of pyramids you are now asking Alman…in the end, they didn't prove to me anything, they just proved they are rude and non scientific…

..but, as a historian and practitioner of Tarot for over 20 years, I will try to be short and clear…Tarot pictures are universal psychic pictures, whose origin is not quite known…there are several theories, and the most probable is that they originated in medieval Italy in late 14th or early 15th century among certain groups of Christian mystics…so, as UNIVERSAL pictures, can we find some Egyptian influence in them? OF COURSE!!! Can we find Vedic influence? OF COURSE!!! We can even find influence of native American religions, and everybody would agree that origins of Tarot got absolutely nothing to do with native Americans...
...Wands (or rather spears), Cups, Swords and Disks (or rather shields), are all ancient weapons or maybe better, the things that were absolutely useful to anyone in ancient times…Wands  are made of wood, and the wood is most important and easy thing to find to burn a fire…with Cups you can easily pick water…Swords are making distinctive sound when brandished through air…and Disk or shield is simple flat tool easily lowered to the ground…
…cherubs, those figures of man, eagle, bull and lion, are of Assyrian origin…
…just few days ago I heard explanation that tarot is, with no doubt, of Templar origin…the main argument was that the Fool is non devoted person, and Magus is devoted person, so obviously it shows templar way of initiation (????)…why the author of the theory couldn’t think about any other older initiatory systems, he hasn’t explained…

…so mister Alman, I don’t see why you shouldn’t continue in your search, it is very interesting quest to find any connection of Tarot to any ancient mythology or religion...but, as a scientist to a scientist, just the friendly suggestion, examine as much questions as you can, before you present any kind of theory…on the contrary, you can get easily ridiculed by the people who might not have very persuasive arguments, but are noisy, sharp and determined (this has nothing to do with the commentators on this topic)

Ankh em Ma'at!
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 21, 2010, 09:20:31 am
Quote from: Isisenu
Everybody needs to calm down a bit...this argue reminds me on my first days on this forum, when I asked some people from here to prove me with same kind of arguments about building of pyramids you are now asking Alman…in the end, they didn't prove to me anything, they just proved they are rude and non scientific…


To ask for sources and appropriate citations is not rude. It is proper scholarly practice. Were I to submit my graduate level research without such things, my work would not be accepted.

It is also the accepted practice of cultures which have inherited the Greco-Roman rhetorical tradition to expect, among other things, credibility (Ethos) and logical argument supported by fact (Logos) from anyone advancing a point. These are not instances of rudeness. They are elements of debate which cannot be ignored.

Debate need not be happy and fluffy. By its definition, debate is contention between disputing factions, and it can be quite vigorously conducted. As the ultimate goal is (ostensibly) truth, it is my opinion that it is healthier that debate be done in the latter manner. If a point cannot stand up to the exchange of ideas, let it fall. Thus we will discover what is true and what is not.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on September 21, 2010, 09:48:10 am
Well spoke Khesretitui, I agree wholeheartedly.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Mesetibes on September 21, 2010, 10:46:37 am
Just a friendly reminder folks that you shouldn't be posting images on the forums. Not everyone has high speed internet, and truthfully, images often displace text and make it difficult to read.

That being said, links to images are fine. :)

~Maret
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on September 21, 2010, 12:19:04 pm
My apologies Maretemheqat.  I was not aware that posting images was not recommended and would cause issues with performance since everything is fine on my end? Anyway, I will be sure to post links in the future instead.

And yes, very well stated Khesretitui.  I also agree with you.  "If a point cannot stand up to the exchange of ideas, let it fall. Thus we will discover what is true and what is not."-Khesretitui. This seems to me to be happening here...

Alman: all we are asking is for the sources that inspired this spark of discovery within you to develop your theory.  

 
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 21, 2010, 01:23:26 pm
Hello All, you offer many difficult and complex questions.
My first essay was to show that caps 144-150 of the BoD ( Budge is best) comprised the material from which the Tarot was built ( with
 the Philae carvings) I have given all my sources in this and will rehearse again  the deductive process.
My second point touched on but not gone through was how this could be? chaps 144-150 is not the only Egyptian rites to find there way through to Europe but this is another matter.
Non of you have challenged any of the deductions made so far.
Uniquely the Egyptians left a huge record of all their doings which is why we can practice it today.   If you have ever read Graves White Goddess you can see how The Mediterranean found its way into the UK. Meaning we are not isolated in the way  the average modern person feels.
To reabilitate spiritual life in the modern world we need to understand how the violence and madness of medieval Christianity brought spiritual life to a halt. As we now restore our teachings,insight comes was we go back towards the source.
Advanced knowledge  high learning and realisation is being rebuilt  but it will hurt a bit - to realise why the pope did not come to the UK carrying a Tarot in his hand saying ' get one of these it has a picture of me in it '.

I am not phased by all the to-ing and fro-ing and will post and how I think  the  Tarot creator arrived at the images.
ps the Devil Card always seems to get em going.
So 2 postings to come
1/ Rehearsal
2/ How the Tarot could have been created.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 21, 2010, 01:30:24 pm
 Egyptian Tarot argued (http://thevalley.ukpagan.com/index.php?showforum=54)
Here is some argument with little repost so more coherent.
Signing up is free if you need to do so and only takes a few seconds
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: ubenet on September 21, 2010, 03:23:00 pm
so, wait. you're not going to answer any of our questions where we asked them - i have to sign up on another board?

Quote from: Alman
violence and madness of medieval Christianity brought spiritual life to a halt.


medieval christianity brought spiritual life to a HALT? wow. i guess that degree i got in medieval religion is worthless, then?
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Setkheniitw on September 21, 2010, 08:30:01 pm
Quote from: Alman
Non of you have challenged any of the deductions made so far.


Actually, we have, you're just avoiding actually taking up those challenges ;)  We asked you multiple times for you to give actual citations, and all you've given us was "Budge and Faulkner said it" and a heavily contested book on Goddess worship.  Do you have any other actual sources besides your personal opinions?

How do you know that you aren't just seeing things that don't exist because you want them to be true?

You imply that we're somehow in love with the idea that the Tarot was likely invented in a Christian context.  The cards contain classic Christian symbolism which you are trying to trace to ancient Egyptian symbolism.  We aren't telling you this as if it benefits us.  It doesn't!  I'm not a Christian.  I am Kemetic.  It would be absolutely awesome to me if the Tarot were invented in ancient Egypt.  But I see absolutely no evidence that it was.  Your evidence is entirely subjective.  One can easily point to Bible stories which are far more similar to the Tarot than your examples.  Why are you ignoring the obvious in favor of the path of most resistance?
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Kheper on September 21, 2010, 09:23:38 pm
M Htp! Alman:

I'm somewhat perplexed as to why you would quote Robert Greaves' "The White Goddess" when it has been largely debunked by most scholars, archaeologists and the Celtic Pagan community as a work or pure fiction and not scholarly nor historical in any way shape or form.
  The White Goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Goddess#Criticism)

I'm also curious as to why you would quote Budge when there are better translations of all things Egyptian out there and Wallis' works have come under fire for blatant theft of his students work (claiming them as his own) and that many of his theories and conclusions have since been overthrown.
So you're quoting outdated and debunked material to back up your claims....  The scientific method demands that we simply look at the evidence and see where it leads us. Forming a hypothesis and then looking for evidence that supports it belongs more to someone with an agenda than a true scholar. Many people have been wrongly accused of crimes or their works debunked for using the method of looking for evidence to support a claim, rather than letting the evidence speak for itself.

Senebty,
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Isisenu on September 22, 2010, 03:33:57 am
@ Khesretitui...You  misunderstood me or you didn't want to understand…but, anyway I am glad that you recognize yourself in my words, as I’ve recognized You…and now, be that scientific and read again what I’ve written…
… this is not some Greco-roman philosophy forum, this is kemetic forum…and to quote our Nisut’s words, to be kemetic is to think kemetic, and it means to train ourselves to have a multileveled mind…though i agree with your forelast sentence...not with the last, because ultimate truth is only Netjer...

@ Alman...sorry mister, but you haven't proven that Tarot originated in ancient Egypt...as I've said, any myth or religious symbol can be connected to Tarot since it is so universal...we have to be fair and accept that the people who created Tarot used some egyptian mythology as they did with others, but Tarot is made on the judeo-christian, kaballistic basis...

Ankh em Ma'at!
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 22, 2010, 09:29:12 am
Quote from: Isisenu
@ Khesretitui...You  misunderstood me or you didn't want to understand…but, anyway I am glad that you recognize yourself in my words, as I’ve recognized You…and now, be that scientific and read again what I’ve written…
… this is not some Greco-roman philosophy forum, this is kemetic forum…and to quote our Nisut’s words, to be kemetic is to think kemetic, and it means to train ourselves to have a multileveled mind…though i agree with your forelast sentence...not with the last, because ultimate truth is only Netjer...


As a rhetorician I am not in the business of deliberately misunderstanding anyone. Indeed, I believe I understand your intent all too well.

As for whether anything on this forum has roots in the Greco-Roman tradition, while the material is Kemetic in nature, we conduct the lion's share of this discussion in English.

John Hinds notes that the relative degree of involvement of readers in the construction of meaning in texts both differs as and depends upon the native language of the reader (Hinds 141). Matthew McCool notes as well that the assumptions, strategies, and goals of writing vary according to culture (1).

These cultural distinctions are discussed at length by Edward T. Hall, who asserts that most cultures and their attendant languages can be placed along a continuum and judged as relatively high-context or low-context, meaning that a member of the given culture assumes either that his audience shares certain knowledge with him or that he cannot presume such a shared experience, respectively (6).

Hall further asserts that low-context cultures presume heterogeneity among members of their society, and, as a result, such individuals require detailed contextual information in each discussion (8). As Hall considers speakers of English to be relatively low-context in nature, it is only natural that a member of an English-speaking culture would expect detailed background information when approaching a text.

Moreover, according to Hinds, American English rhetoric, which is strongly influenced by the Aristotelian tradition, places ultimate responsibility for comprehension on the writer (143). Precision of language and the explicit statement of facts, points of argument, and objectives are considered the hallmarks of effective writing, and if the text is not understood, then it is presumed that the writer did not sufficiently explain himself.

According to McCool, this is considered a direct mode of discourse which places emphasis on precision of language and the explicit statement of facts, clarity, and concise wording (2). English texts, therefore, state the purpose of their composition first and then set about justifying this claim through detailed and precise argument. Due to the straightforward nature of such texts the reader is not held accountable if the information is found to be obtuse or disorganized. Rather, the writer is faulted for making his case poorly.

As this is a forum, then, that conducts itself primarily in English (and specifically, in many cases, in American English), the rules of argumentation specific to that language are the default "setting" of debate in the forum. That is fact rooted in linguistics and history, and it cannot be pooh-poohed away with an invocation of the esoteric.

As OP is located in the United Kingdom and conducting debate in English, OP is presumed to at least be familiar with the expectations of English-language discourse, even though there are minor deviations when comparing American and British English and the cultures that inform those languages. This is matter that cannot merely be rejected because it is possibly irritating or inconvenient.

Finally, maintaining a condescending tone is not a productive element of any debate, and I would respectfully request that you refrain from doing so in the future. I have not failed to maintain decorum with you, though I have been to the point, and I therefore expect the same of my partners in debate.


For those interested:

Works Cited

Hall, Edward T. and Mildred Reed Hall. Understanding Cultural Differences: Germans, French and Americans. Yarmouth, ME: Intercultural Press, 1990. Print.

Hinds, John. "Reader Versus Writer Responsibility: A New Typology." Writing Across Languages: Analysis of L2 Texts. Ulla Connor and Robert Kaplan, eds. Cambridge, MA: Addison-Wesley, 1988. Print.

Kaplan, Robert B. "Cultural Thought Patterns in Inter-cultural Education." Landmark Essays on ESL Writing. T. Silva and P.K. Matsuda, eds. Manwah, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, 2001. Print.

McCool, Matthew. Writing Around the World: A Guide to Writing Across Cultures. New York: Continuum, 2009. Print.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Aashemmuti on September 22, 2010, 09:56:57 am
I feel so dumb... I know how to carry on a discussion in English, but I know nothing of Greco-Roman rhetorical anything. I did not realize there were these kinds of requirements for carrying on a discussion on this forum. I have been tempted to participate in this discussion but quite honestly, at the risk of making myself sound an idiot, I could barely understand what Khesretitui was saying in the preceding post.

I hope we are allowed to have discussions here without being trained in classical debate or rhetoric or whatever Khesretitui is talking about. Khesretitui I apologize if this post comes off wrong. I respect your great intellect and knowledge of this tradition. But you should know there are some people here who do not know these formal rules of debate. If all discussions must now adhere to traditional Greco-Roman rhetorical whatever, could someone please post a notice for the forum at large, and then inform us what these rules are. I am hoping it will not take a college course or degree to participate in discussion on this forum. Currently I am intensely intimidated by the kind of language being used, and I shall go hide in a corner for a while.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on September 22, 2010, 10:03:11 am
Aashem, I think the bulk of the message is, "if you're going to assert something, the responsibility to make your point clearly and concisely, is soley on YOU, and any misunderstanding means you have muddled your points"....that's my takeaway...
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 22, 2010, 10:05:01 am
Of course I am aware that most people don't know the minute details. However, as I insist on sources from OP, I believe it would be hypocritical to assert my point without providing my own. If you conduct business in English, you very likely already have a gut sense of what you need or don't need.

These things I have invoked are merely the typical standards to which English discourse is held, as viewed by scholars who make their living analyzing such things. However, even if you can't name the terms specifically, you likely know them by feel.

Most of us, for instance, don't buy things without proof when we're told something dubious. If I told you the moon was made of cheese, you would want me to back this up, and I would not expect you to believe me until I could back it up.

This is merely the "under the hood" explanation as to why, all provided, as I noted, because I expect OP to list his sources and because it has been suggested that my doing so is insensitive.

ETA: Timu has the point precisely. In English, which is the language we use here, that's what is expected of the writer. If understanding fails, it is the writer's responsibility. Because we are all from disparate backgrounds, we cannot assume we all have shared experiences, so background information is extremely important.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Aashemmuti on September 22, 2010, 10:12:58 am
I can see how this could get into a long discussion of semantics as well, in terms of what is "proof" for each of us. For instance: I may believe that there is proof for the existence of the atom and its subatomic particles. However, I have not actually proven it for myself in a lab. I am merely taking the word of a scientist who I believe is trustworthy, that it has been proven. Ergo I find it can be truly difficult to find ultimate "proofs" for things. When it comes to history we are all looking at sources and it then comes down to which sources are most trustworthy to an individual scholar, and why.

Again, I appreciate the great intellect and intelligence of those versed in said rhetorical tradition and debate. And I appreciate the "under the hood" explanation you have given, but can barely understand what you are talking about. (This is no doubt due to my own ignorance.) I also appreciate the need for backup from the OP in terms of his/her conclusions re: Tarot. As for myself I find it onerous to have to visit another forum to view someone's hypothesis; that is my main gripe.

I find that intellectualism is great and so is scholarship, but sometimes it is also necessary to carry on discussion in a language everyone can understand. Perhaps I am the only one having a really hard time understanding much of what is  being said. I love  Tarot so I am interested in the discussion but it is too hard for my tiny brain. I guess the fact that Tarot works for me will have to be enough, and I will not spend too much time analyzing where it came from... I will leave that for the historians. Sorry if that makes me seem unscholarly. I am after all a practitioner not a professor of Tarot.

Thank you all for the very interesting arguments and comments posted, I appreciate them even the ones that I could not fully understand! I stand in admiration of the great minds at work here.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Baket on September 22, 2010, 01:58:35 pm
A'ashem, don't feel bad, you're not the only one having trouble following along. But what a great exercise for the brain, eh? :)
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Aashemmuti on September 22, 2010, 02:25:05 pm
Good thing my brain has no muscles or they would be cramping. Lol!!
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: ubenet on September 22, 2010, 02:52:06 pm
ashem, you may not know much about the history of tarot, but you also aren't trying to convince people that you do. that's the difference, as i see it. :)
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 22, 2010, 04:03:43 pm
Quote from: Aashemmuti
I can see how this could get into a long discussion of semantics as well, in terms of what is "proof" for each of us. For instance: I may believe that there is proof for the existence of the atom and its subatomic particles. However, I have not actually proven it for myself in a lab. I am merely taking the word of a scientist who I believe is trustworthy, that it has been proven. Ergo I find it can be truly difficult to find ultimate "proofs" for things. When it comes to history we are all looking at sources and it then comes down to which sources are most trustworthy to an individual scholar, and why.


Ultimately, you are correct: standards for adequate proof are different in different fields. There are also different standards for challenging established knowledge than there are with simply sharing one's opinion with no intent to convince others that it is more correct than their own perspective.

In the case of your example about the atom, scientists across many generations have slowly advanced our knowledge on the subject to where we can say with a good degree of certainty that we know specific qualities and natures that atoms possess. However, that knowledge is always subject to modification or rejection, and if convincing, new material surfaces and is vetted, then we must change our perspective. This is because we are still at a level of incomplete understanding. Our knowledge is evolving -- and it evolves through debate and experimentation.

The key to accepting that knowledge, though, is the provision of evidence that supports it, especially when the new theory challenges a very large body of accepted material. The use of questionable sources as a basis for belief, too, would have to be explained if it happened. One would have to look at why a questionable source is considered dubious and then refute *those* arguments first before making one's own arguments.

And you are absolutely correct about trustworthiness in source material. Without a time machine, we'll ultimately never know, but through rigorous research, we can get closer than by mere conjecture.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Setkheniitw on September 22, 2010, 06:08:59 pm
Quote from: Aashemmuti
I find that intellectualism is great and so is scholarship, but sometimes it is also necessary to carry on discussion in a language everyone can understand. Perhaps I am the only one having a really hard time understanding much of what is  being said.


I think essentially Khesret is just saying "back up what you say appropriately."  I'm not scholar of debate either, but it's generally assumed that if you are trying to convince people of something... especially something controversial... you want to:

A. Make your case clearly.
B. Give adequate evidence.
C. Give adequate citations.
D. Adequately address contradictory evidence.

I'm actually having a hard time following along, too.  Don't worry too much about that.  The main problem I see here is that Alman is saying things and not citing his sources properly, therefore we have absolutely no real idea where he's getting his ideas from, and he doesn't adequately address things like, for example, Ubenet's reference to the four evangelists which was a really good point.

Quote from: Aashemmuti
I love  Tarot so I am interested in the discussion but it is too hard for my tiny brain. I guess the fact that Tarot works for me will have to be enough, and I will not spend too much time analyzing where it came from... I will leave that for the historians. Sorry if that makes me seem unscholarly. I am after all a practitioner not a professor of Tarot.


This actually reminds me of learning to flintknap.  Is that weird?  We watched this video by a flintknapping master explaining how one rock breaks another rock and were asked if it made sense.  We all said "Sure, why not?"  It turned out the explanation was entirely wrong, but had been a very popular one for a really long time.

The point my professor had was that you can learn to be extremely good at something without having a clue how it works.  That doesn't mean it won't help, but you don't need to know the history of the Tarot to be able to read it.  You could believe that the Tarot was literally scraped off of Egyptian mummies and then photocopied on a Xerox machine in medieval Japan by Santa Claus and Jesus and still be able to read the cards.  That doesn't mean your history is right, but you can still read it.  So no worries in that regard :)

I'll also reiterate that there's a huge difference between reading Tarot with little, no, or an inaccurate understanding of its origins and arguing an alternative to its origins without properly backing it up.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Aashemmuti on September 22, 2010, 07:29:56 pm
Quote from: Setkheni_itw

This actually reminds me of learning to flintknap.  Is that weird?  We watched this video by a flintknapping master explaining how one rock breaks another rock and were asked if it made sense.  We all said "Sure, why not?"  It turned out the explanation was entirely wrong, but had been a very popular one for a really long time.

The point my professor had was that you can learn to be extremely good at something without having a clue how it works.  That doesn't mean it won't help, but you don't need to know the history of the Tarot to be able to read it.  You could believe that the Tarot was literally scraped off of Egyptian mummies and then photocopied on a Xerox machine in medieval Japan by Santa Claus and Jesus and still be able to read the cards.  That doesn't mean your history is right, but you can still read it.  So no worries in that regard :)

I'll also reiterate that there's a huge difference between reading Tarot with little, no, or an inaccurate understanding of its origins and arguing an alternative to its origins without properly backing it up.


I appreciate this viewpoint; it says a lot for me. I guess the important thing is honesty, which I try to do in my practice - if I read Tarot for someone and they asked about the history, I would explain that I practice with the cards and it applies to practical issues today, but for history one should go to solid sources. Thanks Setkheni, I feel not such the dullard now.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Isisenu on September 23, 2010, 03:48:58 am
It is always interesting to me how academic people tend to push themselves above others. This fact is kind of sad to me, because I am also like to view myself as scholar and scientist, but I always thought that I can learn something from anybody, even from the beggar living on the street. Today you don’t need academy to know something, information is free and available, and all this citations are needed only in the circles of academics, this is forum, I am not going to quote on that what I’ve just written. Do I really need to quote the source for what I wrote about the history of Tarot? Or about the origins of cherubims?
Alman was not rude, he was just non-scholarly. And the reaction of some people on that was rude. That’s what I’ve meant…and I agree that when you are trying to prove something to someone, you just need to quote the sources if the proof is not so obvious. In this case, Alman tried to put in front of us something what can only be subjectively explained, as I’ve understood his explanations. And I’ve said to him that he is wrong in a way that I thought is appropriate.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: NiankhSekhmet on September 23, 2010, 06:30:07 am
I do not necessarily agree with your thrust here, Isisenu. I am definitely not an academic, but I am an independent scholar - not just of things Kemetic but of occult and folkloric information.  While scholarship and academia is all fine and good, nothing takes the place of hands on, direct experience. You can read all you want about tarot, about ritual, about any subject you care to name, but if the scholar or layerson is not in it, it has all the validity and taste of a piece of cardboard.

Quoting sources is important (to my mind) for the main reason of not proving you are necessarily right but rather showing precedence for a line of thought, and also giving your audience the chance to obtain that resource and reading it for themselves. Part of the knowledge being readily accessible is being able to say, "I read this idea in this specific source and this is the conclusion I have come to."  Not to do this in fact denies others the ability to find out for themselves, reach perhaps a different conclusion based on the source(s) you cited and shuts down discourse.  If that is the case, why discuss anything at all? Why don't we just preach at each other and flat out say, "I really don't care what you think.  I know what I know because I know it, and we are not going to discuss it, you are simply going to take my word for it."

We all think, we all seek knowledge and we all have this desire to know for ourselves. You can respectfully in the discourse tell someone that you disagree with their findings based on your experience and knowledge, however, if they would provide the resources so that they can also be examined, then perhaps convincing the audience that the thesis is a valid one, then that is how knowledge should be shared.  You have to show, who, what, where, when and why you are asserting something. If it is based on personal experience or personal gnosis, then ok, don't be afraid to say so.

We can vehemently disagree because sources tend to not necessarily agree. Disagreement, however, does not equal disrespect. Arrogant commentary on either side is not necessary, and yet, sadly, it has crept through on both sides in this particular thread. If you don't want to present sources because there is some sort of percieved "proprietary information," say so. If that is the case, get an NDA (non-disclosure agreement).  People do it in film, publishing and scholarship all of the time.  Even those sorts of things are not insurmountable.

So my suggestion is to be calm, concise, cite sources if possible and to be mutally respectful. It can be just as easy or just as difficult as anyone chooses to make it.  The choice is up to each individual; just as the choice to either agree or disagree with the information being presented is as well.

Senebty!
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Aashemmuti on September 23, 2010, 08:02:30 am
Personally I feel that an effective argument should be understandable by the majority of the readers/listeners. In this day and age, I don't think most of us are schooled in classical debate or Greco-Roman rhetoric. Hence, an argument steeped in that tradition that is unintelligible to readers may be very eloquent, but ultimately useless to those who cannot comprehend it.

Then, you have the option of presenting your argument in a way that *is* comprehensible in the current day and age, or you can simply realize that most people are not going to be able to carry on discussion with you on that level, and perhaps not proceed with the discussion if other methods of communication are unacceptable to you. Or just stick to talking with those who can participate using the debate methods you prefer, and ask others to not participate. This is kind of what I've gotten from this thread... honestly I can't really understand *any* of the arguments presented here, Greco-Roman or otherwise. Both the OP and the rebuttals presented are equally confusing to me.

What Isisenu wrote really resonates with me, but I must also say that I don't feel the other posters here are coming from a place of ego or self-importance. I think both are trying hard to make valid points and I do appreciate that.

I respect the great scholarship here, but find that scholarship can be useless when it is inaccessible. Whether that is my fault for being uneducated or someone else's fault for coming from a place of obscure intellectualism (and really I'd prefer not to play "blame game" either way), the fact remains that an argument that cannot be understood is not helpful to anyone. This could be applied to both sides of the discussion as I see it here - one side requires me to sign up for other forums to even read the discussion, and the other side says things like: "...low-context cultures presume heterogeneity among members of their society, and, as a result, such individuals require detailed contextual information in each discussion..." which quite honestly might as well be written hieroglyphs as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 23, 2010, 08:11:14 am
Quote
the other side says things like: "...low-context cultures presume heterogeneity among members of their society, and, as a result, such individuals require detailed contextual information in each discussion..." which quite honestly might as well be written hieroglyphs as far as I am concerned.


While I can see where the terminology could at first be off-putting, there exist means for finding out its meaning. Within the context of what I said I provided a working definition of a low-context culture -- one where members cannot assume to share knowledge with each other. Heterogeneity means difference in type, just as homogeneity means sameness in type.

So what you have here is that people from a low-context culture assume that everybody is different (or has a different experience) and therefore those people have to have background information explicitly stated in order to follow one another's argument. They assume you have to do this each time, since each discussion may involve other people who don't know the background information.

This is in contrast to a high-context culture such as, say, China or Japan, where everybody is expected to know certain things and, as such, nobody ever has to prove those things. If everyone is expected to know Confucius, everybody will know where a quote from him has come from, so in that setting it would not be necessary to cite him. However, in English discourse, we assume the audience may not know, so we need to cite.

That's all that means. If you're interested in further information, you might look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_context_culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_context_culture


It's Wikipedia, which tends to be unreliable, but the information here is rooted in good external sources.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Aashemmuti on September 23, 2010, 08:21:37 am
Wow, what a new concept for me. I would consider our culture to be somewhere in the middle of the two poles described, actually. If you'll notice, there are actually certain things in our culture - at least in United States culture, to which my experience is limited - that people are presumed to have knowledge of. Sometimes the assumption is incorrect, but the assumptions are still made.

One glaring example I can think of is that movie "The Matrix". I see so many metaphysical and theological arguments based on comparisons to that movie, metaphors in the movie, and so forth. It is presumed, generally, in our culture that all people are familiar with that movie. Hence near-constant references to "red pills" and "blue pills" and whatnot.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Aashemmuti on September 23, 2010, 08:22:35 am
Thank you for the background info, by the way. That is extremely interesting and I do greatly appreciate your taking the time to explain these concepts.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 23, 2010, 08:50:09 am
Quote from: Aashemmuti
Wow, what a new concept for me. I would consider our culture to be somewhere in the middle of the two poles described, actually. If you'll notice, there are actually certain things in our culture - at least in United States culture, to which my experience is limited - that people are presumed to have knowledge of. Sometimes the assumption is incorrect, but the assumptions are still made.

One glaring example I can think of is that movie "The Matrix". I see so many metaphysical and theological arguments based on comparisons to that movie, metaphors in the movie, and so forth. It is presumed, generally, in our culture that all people are familiar with that movie. Hence near-constant references to "red pills" and "blue pills" and whatnot.


The Matrix material is a great example. Inside jokes, "geek" culture, and other instances like that are also high-context type elements that we have. Two Trekkies don't need to explain themselves to one another, but if one Trekkie isn't sure someone else is also a Trekkie, s/he has to be very detailed in explaining what the Organian Treaty is, for instance.

Additionally, sometimes researchers forget that not everybody is doing the same research, and we forget to explain ourselves completely as a result. ;)

Another good example is the difference between myself and my husband, culturally speaking. He's from another state, and I'm from Texas. When we first got together, we had a dispute over how chili should be made. It just "is" made a certain way in the part of Texas where I grew up, but not so where he's from. I assumed he knew "my" chili, and he assumed I knew "his."
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on September 23, 2010, 08:57:51 am
Quote from: Setkheni_itw


 You could believe that the Tarot was literally scraped off of Egyptian mummies and then photocopied on a Xerox machine in medieval Japan by Santa Claus and Jesus and still be able to read the cards.  


LMAO! Haaaaahaaaahaaa! Thanks for the laugh of the day Setkheni!
>  D
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Aashemmuti on September 23, 2010, 09:00:31 am
Quote from: Khesretitui


The Matrix material is a great example. Inside jokes, "geek" culture, and other instances like that are also high-context type elements that we have. Two Trekkies don't need to explain themselves to one another, but if one Trekkie isn't sure someone else is also a Trekkie, s/he has to be very detailed in explaining what the Organian Treaty is, for instance.


One example from my own life is blues culture, meaning the culture and poetry of blues music. A lot of my friends are people also into this music, and if one of us refers to a certain artist or lyric, it is instantly understood along with a bevy of underlying connotations. Sometimes when talking to others, I have to remind myself that such references are useless, as the backstory would take so long to explain that the listener would be at risk of getting lost in a sea of unfamiliar information.

I personally wish that people would lay off the Matrix references. It is really overdone. I refuse to watch this movie because I am tired of hearing about it, and feel that there are many other fictional metaphors and allegories for life that we  can use as common reference... such as LORD OF THE RINGS, lol!
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Aashemmuti on September 23, 2010, 09:01:22 am
Quote from: Ta_Imu_Aset
Quote from: Setkheni_itw


 You could believe that the Tarot was literally scraped off of Egyptian mummies and then photocopied on a Xerox machine in medieval Japan by Santa Claus and Jesus and still be able to read the cards.  


LMAO! Haaaaahaaaahaaa! Thanks for the laugh of the day Setkheni!
>  D


This is indeed great! I love it.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 23, 2010, 10:11:33 am
Quote
. . . if one of us refers to a certain artist or lyric, it is instantly understood along with a bevy of underlying connotations. Sometimes when talking to others, I have to remind myself that such references are useless, as the backstory would take so long to explain that the listener would be at risk of getting lost in a sea of unfamiliar information.


That's absolutely exactly the point. :)

It's because of this reality, which is a part of everything we do in our relatively low-context society, that we have to cite our sources. While there are small pockets of people who will instantly "get it," not everyone will, so we need to make sure they can follow our logic and make the same discovery and connections we did, as Kai Imakhu suggested above.

Citations can be a variety of things. They can be the formal ones such as I demonstrated, which use a bibliography and the like. They can be informal, where you say, "I got [idea] from [place] and [other idea] from [other place] and therefore came up with [synthesized third idea]." They can also simply be an admission that whatever you're mentioning is personal experience.

We do a lot of that third one here when we discuss UPG (unsubstantiated personal gnosis). It doesn't take away from our experience that something is a personal happening, but it's important to distinguish UPG from, say, a quote from the Coffin Texts or a theory formally advanced by scholar. By showing where such things come from, we allow others to understand how to relate to them and join the conversation. Until we do that, it's like telling an inside joke to someone who wouldn't otherwise get it.

Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: ubenet on September 23, 2010, 11:15:11 am
Quote from: Isisenu
It is always interesting to me how academic people tend to push themselves above others. This fact is kind of sad to me, because I am also like to view myself as scholar and scientist, but I always thought that I can learn something from anybody, even from the beggar living on the street. Today you don’t need academy to know something, information is free and available, and all this citations are needed only in the circles of academics, this is forum, I am not going to quote on that what I’ve just written. Do I really need to quote the source for what I wrote about the history of Tarot? Or about the origins of cherubims?


of course everybody has something to teach, no matter what their background is, but they learned it somehow.  i can teach you things about medicine that i learned from a book, from experience, from wikipedia, or from someone else telling me - and if you ask me how i know that thing, i can tell you.  that's all citations are:  telling you how i know a thing.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 24, 2010, 01:46:23 pm
Hello Everybody Only one point seems at the moment to be wished for, and that is -Where are Budges and  Falkoners  citations for the 4 snakes and cardinal points - answer - They are in the picture posted which is just a bit difficult to read It says "Vignette: four serpents, emblematic probably of the cardinal points and fifteen Aats "
    Some people have pointed me to various web sites about the origin of the Tarot  ( in medieval europe), so I took a look and was astonished.  There isn't any! Not a sausage zilch, zero.  The earliest batter trumps only is about 1500 AD and the next 1700 on, Tarot of Marseilles where the meaning of the minor arcana is removed ( restored nicely by Waite/Rider. Essentially these histories are the  history of playing cards in the 14 cent called Trionfs tarochi  tarot and other names.
      What this does however is strengthen our case by showing why the unknown creator would choose to create a ' Tarot '  card deck armed with the material from the chapters of the Bod described. It would seem likely the easy option with many of his fashionable friends having decks of cards.
     So fist piece - Our intrepid adventure arrives in North Africa where which with militant Islam spreading everywhere around the Christian world including Spain, Balkans and taking the remnants of once great Constantinople is an adventure.
    ' Psst - man -ancient secret sacred  text.'  According to a 19/20th cent occultist ' The tarot was created at a conference in North Africa to discuss all knowledge. I have read so many books that  I cannot recall who but it would be in the introduction. The remark seemed fatuous at the time but I knew nothing of Islam scholarship then. Let us say, over a cup  of jasmin or hibiscus the seller explains " its the snakes you know. They mean the four direction and there were originally 4 animals to match the 14 shapes." ' How do you know " "The great scholars met and everything was shown to be so at the great conference of xxxx. The paper was properly presented I assure you. It  is from Ancient Egypt and is very, very very old"
    He  gets his hand copy and other texts as part of a job lot and  proceeds though  to Egypt and sees many wonders.
    The Pharoah smiting enemies from a chariot - 7 Charioteer
    Kings and Queens and Gods and Goddesses on thrones 2-5
    He learns about Sothis the morning star which heralds the inundation which quickly he sees as Aphrodite a classic No17
    We have already discussed the devil, stength and the World where he cannot make sense of the task because the 7 gates text is missing. so he puts in the 4 animals.
   Most of the text is a pig to interpret but he can make a fair fist of some of them eg also the lightening tower and temperance. Where the hanged man fits in I would not know -the sacrificed animal is it many Egyptian pictures but to turn it into a man like this is a bit bizarre.
   Anyway back at home he does all this, making the trumps 1 + 4 + 16 without the gates. He adds images fitting in eratically with his surroundings and audience expectations and invents four new suits rather than run with the animals which he rates as doubtful ( they were), not having seen the real suits in Philae. The sun and moon fit well from the 21 trumps as do death and the hermit so he isn't doing badly. Let us sympathy the text does baffle all my 21th cent readers.
    I was rather hoping somenone would tell who mentioned the ' Conference of all knowledge '
     Anyway that is for now.  Last night I was at a regular interfaith meeting with a Sikh, a good Muslim scholar, a regular Christian, an Athiest/agnostic, Quaker myself as Buddhist and Pagan and a non-characterisable pagan. We talked well. Let all views be freely heard.
now for cut a paste and a few quick comments
     
         
   
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 24, 2010, 01:59:08 pm
   One little answer -someone says earlier that univeral symbols can be seen everywhere. this looks like reductio -ad -absurbum to me. It will not work here because every picture can be seen as part of a universal image. My contention is that these images are very distinctive in their original and the result though heavily parsed still looks like its originations. The translation appear  essentially as  buy ins so include a very weird selection of imagery from all over the place. This itself is a further hint  and gives further consistency, that the author is working from another text. Every little helps indeed  
Q Are the Minor Arcana there. A. Yes
Q Are there 14 - A. Yes Q so Are they Numbered - A Indeed in Egyptian fully.
Q But you need 4 x 14 A. The Egyptians indicated this by 4 little snakes.
Q Is this your idea A. No most Egyptologists agree that these snakes mean the 4 directions without any idea of the possible significance
Q But thee are no suits in the BoD?! A True but we have found them in the vestibule of the temple of Isis
Q Are there 14 A Yes Q Are they identical A yes Are they numbered? No but they are labelled as being 14 in number. 14 cobras Greatly feared 14 Bulls great roarer, 14 Hawks lord of the knife 14 Lions lord of the spear.
Q But to prove your contention you must also show that the Major Arcana are also part of this teaching called Entering the house of Osiris. Can you do this A Yes this is true in chaps 145-146

Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on September 24, 2010, 05:42:17 pm
Um?

I still don't understand where you are coming from with this information.  Just because you put some sentences inside quotation marks does not automatically make it a real and creditable quote.  Also, how are you justified all these random questions and answers you are posting here? This information you are presenting is beginning to make me arrive at the assumption that you truly do not hold any creditable information on this matter.  What you are sighting as the 'Major Arcana' from chapter 145 of the Book of the Dead are actually the guardians of the gates ones soul must pass through the enter into the duat.  This link below will show you an image of all 'ten' guardians.... there is not 14 as you have mentioned.

http://i51.tinypic.com/2zhozll.png

Is it because the guardians look like they are 'card' shaped that you arrived at the conclusion that they are tarot cards?    










Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Setkheniitw on September 25, 2010, 12:24:02 am
Quote from: Alman
Where are Budges and  Falkoners  citations for the 4 snakes and cardinal points - answer - They are in the picture posted which is just a bit difficult to read It says "Vignette: four serpents, emblematic probably of the cardinal points and fifteen Aats "

Okay, I see it now.  I still don't understand where he would get that idea.

It is also my understanding that Budge is extremely outdated.  Personally, I don't think I've seen many mentions of Budge that didn't mention that.

Quote from: Alman
What this does however is strengthen our case by showing why the unknown creator would choose to create a ' Tarot '  card deck armed with the material from the chapters of the Bod described. It would seem likely the easy option with many of his fashionable friends having decks of cards.

You're coming to a conclusion here based on your own preconceived notion, though, so it doesn't strengthen anything.  You can't just fill in a gaping hole with personal speculation.  I mean, you can go ahead and speculate all you want as to what might have happened, but it doesn't help your case where actual history and evidence are involved.  Not today, anyway.

Quote from: Alman
According to a 19/20th cent occultist ' The tarot was created at a conference in North Africa to discuss all knowledge. I have read so many books that  I cannot recall who but it would be in the introduction.  The remark seemed fatuous at the time but I knew nothing of Islam scholarship then. Let us say, over a cup  of jasmin or hibiscus the seller explains " its the snakes you know. They mean the four direction and there were originally 4 animals to match the 14 shapes." ' How do you know " "The great scholars met and everything was shown to be so at the great conference of xxxx. The paper was properly presented I assure you. It  is from Ancient Egypt and is very, very very old" ...and so on

Occultists are not automatically historians and I think they're rather prone to pseudohistory.

This story in particular strikes me as very pseudohistorical.  I don't know where you got it from, is this your personal narrative based on what you think happened, or did you get the whole thing elsewhere?  Because if you're going to write a paper and present this as a scholarly work, I would personally suggest you work more on getting good citations and less on turning it into a story.  Speculative stories are great for entertainment, but not always for history, not the way we perceive it today.

Quote from: Alman
I was rather hoping somenone would tell who mentioned the ' Conference of all knowledge '

A Google search of related terms shows nothing.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: AabatDjehuty on September 25, 2010, 06:29:45 am
 
Quote
I still don't understand where you are coming from with this information. Just because you put some sentences inside quotation marks does not automatically make it a real and creditable quote. Also, how are you justified all these random questions and answers you are posting here? This information you are presenting is beginning to make me arrive at the assumption that you truly do not hold any creditable information on this matter.


I agree with you on this. I am still waiting for the citations mentioned earlier. So since Alman can or will not cite anything other than assumptions, the subject is closed for me.

Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: NiankhSekhmet on September 25, 2010, 08:36:04 am
The problem with most occultic citations is precisely that; many would couch their pet theories, rites and assumptions in the robes of Ancient Egypt when nothing of the kind was even remotely true. Somehow, especially back one, two and three hundred years ago, the older it was, then it was assumed to be more valid in the eyes of those both inside and outside those fraternities as if it could basically be assumed that the information being presented was above reproach.  I won't name names, but let us say that our current occult and new age landscape is rife with the same sort of mindest.  If you say Ancient Egyptian whatever it seems to still be to add legitimacy.

I think, Allman, since you are reticent about giving actual citations (title, author, page number, etc.) and speak in generalities that you yourself might have fallen into that web.  Some of the more well known Theosophits and Hermetic "scholars" were actually quite talented at slight of hand and parlour tricks in addition to being the avatars of the Universal Truths they were presenting.

 If you look at the Magician card and you get quite an illustration of that idea. Of course, it does mean that As Above, So Below; but it also means that the Magician controls the situation in his sphere and is able to manifest the desired result from those observing him as well.

Let's face it, ancient Egypt is an incredible draw because it is, quite frankly, the Mother of us all.  We have desire to go back to Mama, so to speak, that is in our DNA. The tarot, too, has within it vast sympbolism it speaks to our psyches no matter who we are. It, too, gets overlayed over so much as well.  I have seen the tarot applied to everything from alchemy to herbs, from Arthurian legend to Frank Herbert's Dune. The Tarot does not need ancient Egypt to be a valid system on its own. And Ancient Kemet does not need tarot in order to be mysterious and interesting.  

It's human nature to want to attach things together like beads on a string, to write analogies for one thing that includes another thing, and believe that if you try hard enough, are clever and insightful enough or are stubborn enough, you can make it all fit.  Technically, it is all connected but it might be something that is only valid to you - or it may be what you suspect, but with that there should be evidence of some kind   Personal passion and conviction are wonderful things, but they don't always hold up under scrutiny.

Quote
"The great scholars met and everything was shown to be so at the great conference of xxxx. The paper was properly presented I assure you. It is from Ancient Egypt and is very, very very old" ...and so on
 

Who? What? When? Do you have examples of the information presented from this gathering of scholars?  I find myself asking why you are so hesitant to present more specific information to us that can be checked for veracity and giving us a chance to read it for ourselves? Is it by chance oathbound or proprietary material?  

According to Dion Fortune, authors such as Madam Blavatsky and Alice Bailey didn't so much want people to discover the truth from their books as much as for people reading them to seek them out for further instruction and thereby gain possible sponsorship through patronage by clients who were willing to pay for such information. I am hoping that the lack of more specific citations and information is not because of something like this.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Bestekeni on September 25, 2010, 09:42:50 am
If I may --

One of the main historical facts from Alman's narrative is patently false.  When the Islamic empire was spreading, they actually did not force conversions... or even encourage them.  It did not behoove them to do so: Only non-Muslims could be taxed.  Furthermore, for hundreds of years, new Muslims-by-choice in the areas of the empire were actually given something of a second-class status, sort of an, "All right, if you insist..." Of course, this got turned on its head after a while due to people emphasizing Islam's egalitarian teachings.

The implication that Islam was forcefully stamping out native practices everywhere it went just doesn't hold water.  If anything, Islam would hardly be a world religion if it weren't for the Sufis who followed the army, encouraging conversion through public service and poetry.

What years are you suggesting for this alleged conference?  
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 25, 2010, 03:09:18 pm
I am sorry Imsetra, the 10 guardians of the gates you give are not such -they are in fact from chap 146 of the BoD  Budge or Faulkener. Your pics are actually from Budge and they are the 10 of the first 12 secret pylons  of the house of Osiris in Abydos. These number 21 and are as described and are indeed the major arcana. Only 12 of these are known to be  illustrated. The gates are found in full at 147 Budge BoD and also 144. chap 144 Faulkener only,  though he has full colour  illustrations of these 7 Gates.
Look please find a book shop -I do not mean to be rude. The books are in front of me.
If you think that looking at these 12 flat encouraged the unknown medieval worthy to create a deck form his texts ten fair enough. I think they  could have had some factor especially as he could put in 1-5 on a throne. The images he finally chose link with one or 2 cards but not generally. I have argued that he generally was trying to illustrate the textual descriptions, creating images from them and adding his own brush. These 12 images hardly fit the textual descriptions unless of course you lived in Egypt at that time!? Maybe one or 2 fit.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 25, 2010, 03:21:56 pm
Oh Bestekeni, You have misread what I have said entirely. I have presented the liberal Islamic tradition of scholarship and tolerance at this time in contradistinction to the Christian World which was the opposite. I do not understand how you got me at 180 degrees. It was Christianity at that time which was destructive and coercive and destroyed all that sought to worship  in the way of their choice. We are agreed here. It is history.  I think I remarked about the fear of Islam in the Christian world a different thing. The average man then might have an irrational fear of Islam ( just like today)
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 25, 2010, 03:40:14 pm
Sehkteni - Thank you for folllowing the argument through with me. Many years ago  I did indeed dismiss the Occultist's comment as pseudo history but now not so and if I find the book one day I may get back up the line. But if the conference was located I doubt whether the agenda paper will ever be found. But it is one more piece towards the argument. The point is these conferences certainly existed and were common.

When young my friends and I preferred and English translation from a French because of its coherency but the Budge BoD still comes out tops. He is mainly criticised for spending up the money when he had 2 many words to translate. Modern translators are generally not that good which is why Budge and Faulkener are still going strong.
Remember their comments are based on a lifetime of going through 100s and hundreds of texts and books and like all experts when they agree ....

Yes my latest batch of comments are filling in the blanks to create a coherent picture.  The basic arguments are still structure and match

 
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: ubenet on September 25, 2010, 05:29:57 pm
Quote from: Alman

Look please find a book shop -I do not mean to be rude. The books are in front of me.


if they're in front of you, could you, like, give us a hint of which ones they are? the suspense is killing me.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Setkheniitw on September 25, 2010, 11:41:55 pm
With all due respect, I don't think you really know what you actually need to be making this argument.  You just can't try making this case while pointing to conferences for which the only evidence is the tales of occultists whose names you don't remember.

It could be a thrilling speculative fiction or useful as a tool of self-growth (and I really do mean that, I encourage you to continue in this avenue), but unless your goal is to be confined to the same shelf as Erich Von Daenikan I'm afraid it's not going to work.

I can't continue this anymore, though, because I think it's all falling on deaf ears.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Khesretitui on September 27, 2010, 10:05:10 am
In my opinion, the desire for scholarly rigor is one-sided in this argument, and this unfortunately prevents further intelligent debate. When Mr. Alman is willing to provide sources without condescending, without demanding his audience buy things, and without referring to vagaries, I will be willing to entertain his hypotheses. However, at this time there is insufficient evidence to justify my continued expenditure of energy on this thread. That said, I wish all parties the best in their studies.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 27, 2010, 07:55:08 pm
Ubenetsenu I am sorry about the confusion caused by my short hand the books I have used are the Book of the Dead by A E  Wallis Budge (big and fat with many extras) - BoD for short. And the British museum  Faulkener edition of the same book.

    The basics of all this argument lies in a few simple strategies.
They are that the basic structure the fact that the minor and major arcana are all present in the Abydos teaching as described with  4x14  + 21 +1.
    When I look a the devil card at 14 or 15 in the Egyptian pillars( and 14 -15 in  tarots) and the strength card which is at 9 in the Egyptian  pillars - I have given this as 11 in the modern Tarot  but according to  some early Tarots this is at 9 as well. (Sermones de Ludo  cum Aliis -at US Playing Cad Company) With the 4 original suit designations at Philae. The conclusion is inescapable -where else can you go with it.
 
     The how is a matter for obsessed scholars but you would certainly start looking in the old ramshackle Islamic libraries. But I have a good idea that it would make no difference, to some of you even, if these  Arabic translations of the Egyptian texts were produced tomorrow.

    The hymn to Ra is in the Old testament and  at least one more text and doubtless more, because I have never read the bible properly, but who would believe it unless they had to.  Some other texts also have found there way over to renaissance Italy but I not not going there for now.
     
    Look  one final word between sun blinded Christianity and moon blinded Islam and material Judaism there is another way. The point of H o N and others like myself is to find this way and follow it but one cannot make an omellete without breaking eggs so I am not always surprised at some reactions here.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Sedjemes on September 27, 2010, 08:11:28 pm
Hotep

I for one am very quite content in my understanding of Egyptian history and more than content in my certainty about religion and spirituality and even "mystery writings" that I neither accept, nor agree, with your "findings."

Sorry, but the "arguments" you offer here, and statements you have made about responses you have received, have not aided in changing my mind. I also read a lot of conference material from Egyptologists and religious scholars :)

But thanks for attempting to make a point. Interesting discussions are always welcome here, even if nobody has their minds changed along the way!

Oh-and...just a gentle reminder that even here we don't  approve of or engage in bashing any other faith, whether or not its practice and beliefs are ours. We respect Judaism, Islam, Christianity and a host of other spiritual paths and religions.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: NiankhSekhmet on September 27, 2010, 08:19:39 pm
Em hotep Alman:

Citing a book's author and title is not enough. Since Budge is decidedly in the public domain, you meed to cite the publisher, the date the edition, and the page number from that specific edition.  ISBN's would be helpful, if there is one. The same goes for the Faulkner translation, there are many different editions of this book.  Much of the Book of the Dead is numbered with chapters, plates, passages, etc. Please be as specific as you can. The pages that you cited tell us little.  I personally have three individual editions - one Budge and Two by Faulkner of the Book of the Dead, and nothing that you have cited is specific enough to make a positive identifying reference.

The same holds true for Biblical citations. If you could please quote the chapter and verse and the particular version of the Bible (eg. King James, Annotated; Amplified, & etc.)  of the Bible, that would be ideal. This should not be difficult. Is there a reason why you don't want to provide these things for our discussion?

And as Kai Imakhu Sedjemes has said, many of us here either have come from or do a great deal of interfaith work with the very Faiths you have seen fit to make both inaccurate and very derogatory commentary about. These are public forums and I would ask you to please try to be respectful of others.

Senebty!

Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on September 28, 2010, 01:49:47 am
Alman...

When you speak about this structure in which these 14 columns are located, are you referring to the stand alone shrine which was built by the Roman Emperor Trajan in around year 100?
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 30, 2010, 10:58:46 am
   Niankh,

    I am sorry you have difficulty dealing with my references. I am scarcely surprised  considering the number of years I have been wading through these.   Budges standard Book of the Dead was originally in 3 volumes. Now called ' The complete Edition '  Publishing information on the first page reads " An English Translation of the chapters hymns etc of the Theban recension, with introductory notes etc. "   ..Second edition revised and enlarged with 20 plates and 420 vignettes "
My book is 1969 - I have had it that long. - US publisher was Barnes and Noble  also 1969
The chapter numbers 144-150 are the easiest to use because they are  relatively easy to find in  other Books of the Dead.
If you get the hang of the chapters first remembering that they are one ritual. ( A very excellent ritual path working for its own sake) and finding Budges copious notes helpful. Good luck

    Insetra  -I think it is clear that the original  temple had 21 columns and 7 gates surrounding them. This is clear from the chapters. It should have been located in Abydos though I know of no temple complex which fits the bill. I don't know Trajans shrine or where it is. But it would be too late for the chaps of the BoD which are 1400 BC and earlier.

If 14 points were ever made they could be in 4 directions like rays or tombs spreading away from the temple. Maybe they were symbolic and used only as part of the teaching. Faulkener calls them mounds. I think regions or divisions are better though they sometimes seem like islands.

    I have a map Plan of work 1909-1911 ( Flinders Pietri??) which shows the old 1st dynasty tombs. They appear to show the tombs on the arc of a circle, their walls  pointing to a place not far away which has never been excavated. Also a series of burials which quite obviously are meant to look like a comet.
      Where the lines meet in a centre may be something very important.
     
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Sedjemes on September 30, 2010, 12:43:58 pm
Hotep

the references as stated omit a bit. Since Faulkner has been cited I quote from the following Foreword by James Wasserman who provided the images for Faulkner's second revised edition 1998 of the Papyrus of Ani/The Book of Going Forth by Day (there are other Papyri for the BoD but Ani is the most complete). On pg 9 Mr Wasserman states that he had planned to "use Budge's translation with his key to hieroglyphics as guide" but that Dr. Ogden Goelet made clear that Budge's translation falls far short of modern standards.

Dr. Goelet comments regarding the so-called Saite recension on pg 141 in the Faulkner volume. He says that "one of the most unfortunate legacies of BUdge's work on the BoD was that he perpetuated Naville's notion of both a Theban and a  Saite recension of the text. ..Scribal work had already become quite erratic during 18th and 19th dynasties, the period of the Theban Recension, and it became very careless in the Saite period. The texts are badly garbled and frequently fail to match their accompnying illustrations, indicating the the scribes were working hastily and usually had poor comprehension of what they were copying."

Dr. Goelet divides the BoD into four major sections: Chapters 1-16: the deceased enters the tomb and descends to the underworld, and the corpse must regain its physical capabilities. Chapter 17-63: the components and mythological origin of most of the important places and gods of the beyond are explained, and the deceased is made to live again so as to arise reborn. Chapters 64-129: the decaeased travels across the sky as one of hte blessed dead, eventually appearing before Wesir and the judges. Chapters 130-189: Having been vindicated the deceeased assumes his power as one of the gods.

Dr. Goelet furnishes a very nice history of the appearance and evolution of the BoD texts and reminds that not all "chapters" (the chapter numberings being modern artifices and not havinb been used by the ancient scribes) always appeared in every coffin or tomb. Ani's own papyrus may have been ready-made in advance--Dr. Goelet points out examples where the name was just added in and not always properly.

Reference to an original temple is ambiguous--what original temple? At Abydos? Not so far. The earliest temple known to date is at Hierakonpolis/ancient Nekhen, and there is a very nice reproduction model of it which can be seen here at http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/hierakonpolis.htm. If the "chapters" of the BoD are being used to cite evidence of what an original temple might have looked like additional evidence would be interesting, as nowhere have the texts of the BoD ever been cited as evidence of physical structure.

Trajan's Kiosk is on Philae, and since Philae was mentioned as one source (which considering its current form was built in Ptolemaic times seems to put it far later. Ptolemaic reliefs and inscriptions are their own version of the language (late Egyptian and later, and, if I am correct, differ from Middle Egyptian in which many of the more familiar texts were written.

Here is a map of the First DYnasty tombs area where Petrie worked and more recently Gunter Dreyer has been working:
http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html

The reader can decide what shape if any those groupings have and whether any significance is felt :)

Senebty
Sedjemes
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on September 30, 2010, 06:25:47 pm
The map given is substantially the one I worked with. You can get it more into perspective on google Earth.
Philae is only important in this debate, so far,  for the 4 x 14 vignettes in the vestibule. I have been to Trajans kiosk and wasn't aware that it had 14 columns originally.   If it had, it could be significant - something to look at. The kiosk is mainly a ruin isn't it.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Sedjemes on September 30, 2010, 06:32:13 pm
Trajan's kiosk, like the entire Philae complex of structures, was moved by Unesco.

The kiosk, which has 14 columns, was built that way by the Roman Emperor Trajan, not by the Ptolemies or even the ancient Egyptians. The Philae temple as it now stands was built by the Ptolemies, not by the ancient Egyptians.

Here is a photograph of the kiosk so people can see it:
http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/1736378
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: NiankhSekhmet on September 30, 2010, 06:34:43 pm
I wonder how the relocation of the Temple of Aset at Philae by UNESCO as a result of the Aswan High Dam project might have effected how those things would have lined up in antiquity.

I would be quite interested to know if there any underwater archaeology crews working on this or was the Temple lined up exactly as it had been at its original location.  Kai Imakhu Sedjemes, do you have anything that might give us some clues?

Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Sedjemes on September 30, 2010, 07:14:33 pm
Hotep

There are two maps of Philae, one pre-dam (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/philae.htm) and one post-dam (http://www.touregypt.net/Map20.htm) that indicates they lined the structures up block by block (just like at Abu Simbel btw) to make the new Philae as accurate as possible. The new island is higher above the water, but they tried to reproduce the topography otherwise as closely as possible.

What worries me (and I have to reserach this more closely) is if any of the individual blocks were damaged in transit. Late Egyptian, i.e. Ptolemaic glyphs, were sometimes weird to begin with, or different at least. I need to get Porter and Moss's volume, which lists all the glyphs, and sit down to compare it with Vassilikika's Ptolemaic Philae.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Maen on October 01, 2010, 01:00:59 pm
em hotep!

I've been following this thread silently until now, but with some interest and I've been doing some research.

Alman, I believe I found the spot of the photo you posted, the one of the cobras in Philae temple, but I'm not sure.
Was it the chamber called "vestibule" on the plan given on  this site (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/philae4.htm) (scroll down)?
And on the left side of the door if you look in the direction of the inner sanctum?

Because if it is, then a publication can be found here:
Bénédite, Georges A., Le Temple de Philae(MMAF 13), Paris 1895
Bénédite numbers the vestibule as "Chambre V" and the depiction can be found on the "Mur Nord", the northern wall
The publication shows seven cobras in a vertical line on the left, with no text. And above them seven cows and one bull, those have their names written in hieroglyphs beside them. I didn’t look up the translations yet, but to me it looks like the seven cows and their bull from Spell 148 (was it that one?)
The corresponding  column on the right side is given as mostly destroyed in the publication, only the upper corner is visible, there are more cows depicted.
If you assume another column of cobras you do indeed get 14 altogether, but there’s space for 14 cows+ 2 bulls, which somewhat skews the count.
And I haven’t yet found any falcons or lions, nor any inscriptions of  '14 Cobras greatly feared', '14 Bulls great roarer',  ’14 Lions lord of the Spear ‘ and  ‘14 Hawks Lord of the knife’.
(I didn’t have the time to study every detail, but neither falcons and lions nor inscriptions are to be found in obvious places. The Cows have individual names and the cobras no inscription at all.)

I’ll try and get some copies and scans of the material as soon as I have some free time on my hands (which, unfortunately, could take some time)


Senebty

Ma’en
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on October 01, 2010, 05:31:23 pm
  Brillaint Maen and a virtual clincher. Because it links as you say directly to the Bull and Seven Kine in this chapter of the Book of the Dead i.e 144-150 of which this is 148. With the 4 suits there as well the meaning of the  '4 little snakes ' is guaranteed. this is now 100%.

       The cobra freeze goes up to the top and across  above the  entrance and they do number 14 because I counted them.

       To the right of the  entrance to the inner shrine is a similar freeze of 14 bulls - my picture came out blurred. I could not find the hawks and lions but the guide said they were there.
       Is this the same vestibule? I did not see the bull and seven kine.  The titles of the bulls lions etc were lifted from an English? archeologist of the same  period ie up to 1930.
       This is how I knew they were there but it took so long to get to Philae ( 30 years) that I lost my references to the actual book.
         I will sort my pictures again and try to see what is there. Then to Philae again inside 2 years I hope.
     
Many thanks and more to come I am sure
     
Awesome
         
     
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Sedjemes on October 01, 2010, 06:22:25 pm
Hotep Maen

Vassilika's book _Ptolemaic Philae_ would be an interesting (and more recent) listing of many of the reliefs in the Philae Temple.

Can you tell from your reference if the images are the usual right-and-left side? E.G. on each side of a doorway or on facing walls would be like mirror images of inscriptions. So an offering or procession scene may appear on two facing walls, same scene just repeated (also possibly making x number of images appear to be twice as many images when in fact they are just x repeated. If that makes sense.

Senebty
Sedjemes

Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Maen on October 01, 2010, 11:59:33 pm
Quote from: Alman
 Brillaint Maen and a virtual clincher. Because it links as you say directly to the Bull and Seven Kine in this chapter of the Book of the Dead i.e 144-150 of which this is 148. With the 4 suits there as well the meaning of the  '4 little snakes ' is guaranteed. this is now 100%.

I'm sorry, Alman, but I'm not seeing 100% of anything here. A mere 10% because all I found is half of what you consider the first suit, and without the inscription.

Quote
The cobra freeze goes up to the top and across  above the  entrance and they do number 14 because I counted them.

Are we then really taling about the same thing? because in Benedite's publication there are only seven cobras on the lower part of the wall, nothing above, and the supposed right side which would bring the number up to 14 is completely destroyed.
Quote
Is this the same vestibule? I did not see the bull and seven kine.  The titles of the bulls lions etc were lifted from an English? archeologist of the same  period ie up to 1930.

The Bull and the cows are higher up on the wall and might be quite difficult to see in the real temple. It would be invaluable to have a more precise reference for the titles, but I might stumble over it yet.

senebty

Ma'en


       
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Maen on October 02, 2010, 12:08:08 am
em hotep Kai-imakhu

Quote from: Sedjemes
Vassilika's book _Ptolemaic Philae_ would be an interesting (and more recent) listing of many of the reliefs in the Philae Temple.

Thann you for the tip! I saw a reference to that book but I wasn't aware that it is a publication with all the reliefs. I'll look it up.

Quote
Can you tell from your reference if the images are the usual right-and-left side?

Thats precisely what it is. As I just mentioned, I only found 7 cobras, used like a kind of outer border, on the lower left side, for the decoration of the northern wall, which has a doorway in the center. The right side is destroyed, so the other 7 cobras are mere speculation at this point but seem plausible as a mirror image.


senebty

Ma'en
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Rev. Neferuhethert on October 02, 2010, 03:48:58 pm
If you are looking for references in Philae, here are some resources:

An online edition of Bénédite's Le temple de Philae:

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5110808

I have Vassilika's book on Philae, and whereas it is a very good art historical study of the iconography and decoration techniques of the temple, it does not have reproductions of the reliefs. There are three other books with line drawings or photos of reliefs, texts, and translations of various parts of the temple complex:

Junker, Hermann, Der grosse Pylon des Tempels der Isis in Philä, Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften, Wien, 1958.

Junker, Hermann, and Erich Winter, Das Geburtshaus des Tempels der Isis in Philä, Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften, Wien, 1965.

Zabkar, Louis V., Hymns to Isis in Her Temple at Philae, Hanover and London, 1988.

Unfortunately, Philae has not yet been completely published. I've heard that Erich Winter, who has the photos, is working with a grad student to put something together. I hope that the rumor is true!

Hope this helps a bit!
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Maen on October 03, 2010, 09:59:02 am
em hotep

wow, an online edition, way cool. p. 175/Plate XI, that's the one I was talking about.
The corresponding hieroglyphs are on 42: page 30 and 43: page 31

senebty

Ma'en
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: WindWeaver on October 04, 2010, 05:47:36 am
Wow, well I just sat here and read all nine pages of this thread!

I am by no means a scholar, and will not pretend to be one.  I think sometimes we find an idea so exciting that we start "seeing things" that aren't really there.

We have to be very careful when it comes to presenting things as FACTS rather than BELIEFS.  We must take care that we aren't simply seeing what we want to see instead of seeing what is really there.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on October 04, 2010, 06:09:17 am
Maen  - Yes this room is marked vestibule on the site. it has a small room coming off immediately on the entrance to it. i.e. from where the photo was taken   Diag. Philae scroll down (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/philae4.htm)   The 14 serpents are in a single straight line from floor to ceiling with maybe 3 along the top. The bulls on the other side start well above the floor. The first three are not neatly vandalised at the bottom ( probably because of sand raising the floor?)  The figures are labelled as a block somewhere ie  no markings on the identical figures. I have photographed the entire room but the quality is very varied. If you have a copy of the 1895 diagram can you post it. This will certainly settle where to look for things. The opposite wall is a mess though the right and left walls are in good condition.
     The 14  pillars of Trajan would assume significance if the priests originally wanted 4 such in each direction.  But sponsors clearly were very eratic on this site ( like today).
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on October 04, 2010, 07:53:48 am
Hello to you all and Maen -
        I would like to thank you for that on line plate.  First up is what I assume is false memories and my frustratingly poor pictures.
       Clearly I am wrong about the location of the cobra frieze i.e They are and were when I was there on the right side of the door as well as the left. But not completely destroyed otherwise I could not have counted them. The drawing of Benedictine is quite frustratingly awful as well.
       However now we are into the details. Apart from the the lions and hawks we need the labels attached all 4 animals. The No 14  maybe easy to spot.
Thanks for all the work being done. I will enhance my pictures. At the moment the bulls seem to be bulls not kine.
     There appear to be 30 spaces available to fit in 14 cobras and bulls.
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Maen on October 04, 2010, 02:52:24 pm
em hotep Alman,

your memory must not neccessarily be false, things might well look different in the temple today from what Benedite found in 1895 - restorations may have been made since then, some blocks reconstructed or something.
I'll be in Egypt again in February, I'll see if I can't fit Philae into my schedule and look it up in person...
Still, we're lacking positive evidence.


But concerning your Minor Arkana you might be interested in this article:
Robinson, Peter, Book of the Dead chapters 149 and 150 and their Coffin Text origins, in: Griffin, K.(ed.): Current Research in Egyptology 8, Oxford 2008.

Robinson basically shows that most of the fourteen "mounds" have older roots in the coffin texts, but there they don't all appear together, and they don't have their accomanying vignettes. The author assumes that the fourteen mounds were assembled into a BoD-spell sometime in the 18th dynasty, and the vignettes were either added from an unknown source or invented. He also discusses whether the "mounds" are in some way connected to real places in Egypt, but if I remember correctly he comes to the conclusion that they aren't.

And I'm still not seeing a Tarot-connection here. Aren't the minor Arkana divided into a sequence of Ace to Ten and four Court Cards? I'm not seeing a similar structure in the BoD-spell, apart from the total number. (And fourteen is indeed an important number in Egyptian mythology, since Wesir's body was cut into fourteen pieces.)


senebty

Ma'en
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on October 09, 2010, 01:57:10 pm
Maen if you look at page 42/30 of your site you can  see that the Bulls on the left are actually not Bull drawings. The Hieroglypths make it clear that these are as  previously stated 7 kine and one bull - making eight on the top left. This is at least some progress. I have  seen that Per Linder has a book in Swedish? but it is in his language - which we may nit need if hw has  the writings and pictures
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on October 13, 2010, 03:12:15 pm
Hello Maen - I do hope you get to Egypt and see the Philae Temple again -remember how difficult it is to take photos with a bog standard digital camera in a dark place -you have to pre-set the manual focus usually as the focus assist light will not work in near darkness. Usually the bar in manual focus is not calibrated.
   I will look at your references -I have the Coffin and pyramid texts. The Egyptians like many ancient teachings had  many corresponding references eg 21 pillars are 21 parts of the body (one each god) and the 21 parts of the boat of Ra. 7 gates and seven kine. 14 places where the body of Osiris was flung helps with mounds, islands regions etc. Altogether a symbolic and spiritual reality not an actual one.
      The 14 tarot trumps had it is said Pagan gods originally for the court cards. I feel that the unknown Tarot author  merely imitated the packs of the day and baulked at the trying to give value to each card even though he had a text. However we do not have the original deck or the name of its creator. But I do feel  that Waite/Smith were looking in the right direction when they restored a  pictoral value for each card. i.e intuitively they felt there was something missing.
 I have been through my pictures and they are simplty not good enough. I have the South wall but can't see the strips to the left and right. They are left blank by Benedict.
The Per  Linder book is about Inscriptions in Philae Temple, perhaps complete. There is a copy in the British Library.
The British Library is available on line
Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Blissi on November 08, 2010, 09:07:59 am
Alman, I am curious to know if you have seen or read a book called The Egyptian revival or the ever-coming son in the light of the Tarot. By Frater Achad.
You can read it online here: http://www.witchschool.com/page/library-e

I was wondering if, you had similar ideaology as he does to the tarot cards? He also uses Kabalah and other religous aspects in the cards, but it is the only book so far I've read which incorporate Egyptian deities.

Title: Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
Post by: Alman on December 06, 2010, 06:08:54 pm
Hello Blissi,  I went and read Frater Achad's opus on the  site you gave. I honestly have to say it was at times unpleasant and peurile and cannot recommend or  say that the 1920's author knew anything about Egyptian teachings at all.  The QBL itself is fine and noble though it is much later than the AE teachings and has a completely different tone so there is no easy comparison. I have practised the Kabala and always keep it separate from my A E stuff. I believe in using original texts with little embellishments to allow the transmissions to remain whole.
My site is   Followers of Horus  (http://www.followersofhorus.comule.com)  So you can see what  I follow. My argument  was that the Tarot originated from the Abydos ritual in the book of the dead because the correspondences to it are more than coincidence can bear. The source text would most likely have been in Arabic