The House of Netjer, a Kemetic Orthodox Temple

[PUBLIC] About the Kemetic Orthodox Religion => [PUBLIC] Netjer (Our Gods & Goddesses) => Topic started by: Ta_Imu_Aset on October 11, 2010, 08:13:15 am

Title: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on October 11, 2010, 08:13:15 am
I tried to search Ra and nothing came up, which I am totally SURE there is plenty about Ra, so there must be something up with the search function....

Anyways, I'm curious about the different forms of Ra, I know that "Ra-Khepri" or "Ra-Horakhty" is the rising sun, "just Ra"(?) at noon, and *I think* it's "Ra-Atum/Atum-Ra" or Ra-Khnum(?) in the evening/setting sun. And I think I remember reading something about a "midnight sun" aspect but I can't really recall much else about it.

Anybody know more about this?

Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Tanebet on October 11, 2010, 08:42:01 am
the first God coming to my mind when thinking of the midnight sun would be Sokar or Sokar-Wesir

I think it was in the Amduat where Ra merged with Wesir
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Satsenu on October 11, 2010, 10:20:29 am
Another Ra-sync to throw into the mix is one of my beloveds, Amun-Ra. ^_^ I'm not sure about the technical stuff beyond my own UPG. Sorry for not being much help!
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Tai'awepwawet on October 11, 2010, 10:58:43 am
Wepwawet-Ra, gogo!
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: TahekerutAset on October 11, 2010, 11:03:22 am
There's also Sobek-Ra.  
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on October 11, 2010, 04:03:23 pm
I did think of Sokar, and even Wesir, but I've never heard of a Ra-Wesir before so I thought that might have been a dead end...?
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Padjaiemweru on October 11, 2010, 04:30:40 pm
Quote from: Ta_Imu_Aset
I did think of Sokar, and even Wesir, but I've never heard of a Ra-Wesir before so I thought that might have been a dead end...?


That's a horrible pun... :)
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Ta_Imu_Aset on October 11, 2010, 04:36:02 pm
Haa! Oh snap I didn't even notice that...nice...
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Qaitsenu on October 11, 2010, 05:37:49 pm
Quote from: Padjaiemweru
Quote from: Ta_Imu_Aset
I did think of Sokar, and even Wesir, but I've never heard of a Ra-Wesir before so I thought that might have been a dead end...?


That's a horrible pun... :)


Oi..... that IS a horrible pun....
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Menekh on October 11, 2010, 09:18:58 pm
Em Hotep Timu.

There is a "Litany of Re" (http://www.touregypt.net/ancientegypt/litanyofre.htm) which lists the 75 forms of Ra. You can find it in Alexandre Piankoff's translation which is, unfortunately, out of print.  Any good university library should have it if you have access or can get it through interlibrary loan. It's definitely worth a look :)

Menekh
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Rev. Raheri on October 11, 2010, 10:22:51 pm
Quote from: Ta_Imu_Aset
I did think of Sokar, and even Wesir, but I've never heard of a Ra-Wesir before so I thought that might have been a dead end...?

Actually both Wesir and Ra are different sides of the same coin, and not all that different. Wesir is Ra resurrected in the Duat. He is the sun in the night. "I am Ra in the day." Not quite that dead of an end, but an entirely new beginning.

A little something He told me once.
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Imsetra_Imsety on October 12, 2010, 01:32:51 am
In Essence, all Netjer are some form or embodiment of Ra; seeing as Ra is an essence of Atum, the first Creator... without Ra, none of us would exist; nor would this planet exist in the form it does. Dwah-mery-Ra. :)
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Shuwyt on October 12, 2010, 06:32:34 am
Quote from: Tanebet
the first God coming to my mind when thinking of the midnight sun would be Sokar or Sokar-Wesir

I think it was in the Amduat where Ra merged with Wesir


I'm almost certain Hemet said more-or-less that exact thing to me once - I don't remember the exact conversation now or if I have it logged somewhere, but I think it came out of me finding Ra as a Beloved to be odd given what a 'sun' person I am not - her 'try looking at it from this perspective and see if it helps' point was that Sokar-Wesir was Ra, Ra during His journey through the Duat (and, presumably, that Ra was therefore just Sokar-Wesir on the other side). And then my brain got all breaky. ^.^
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Munefmontu on October 12, 2010, 08:46:43 pm
There is also Montu-Ra

on another note...there is also Amun-Montu.  Amun takes over Montu in later periods...which leads me to believe that Amun-Ra could simultaneously be Amun-Ra and Amun-Montu-Ra... I think I made that confusing enough LOL
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Huyitu on October 12, 2010, 10:09:11 pm
Quote from: Shuwyt
Quote from: Tanebet
the first God coming to my mind when thinking of the midnight sun would be Sokar or Sokar-Wesir

I think it was in the Amduat where Ra merged with Wesir


I'm almost certain Hemet said more-or-less that exact thing to me once - I don't remember the exact conversation now or if I have it logged somewhere, but I think it came out of me finding Ra as a Beloved to be odd given what a 'sun' person I am not - her 'try looking at it from this perspective and see if it helps' point was that Sokar-Wesir was Ra, Ra during His journey through the Duat (and, presumably, that Ra was therefore just Sokar-Wesir on the other side). And then my brain got all breaky. ^.^


Trying having both as fathers, sometimes when I'm thinking about their interactions I can feeling my brain fry in my skull.

It really is an interesting subject, hopefully when I have some more time at home (I'm out for the week) I can contribute with some of the texts I have. I got the litany of Ra and some other neat things.

One thing I can add though is that Ra in the under world is often called Auf or Efu-Ra meaning corpse-Ra/Sun.
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Huyitu on October 23, 2010, 02:20:46 am
Sorry it took me some time to get back to this, anyways...

I have some interesting passages from “The Litany of Re” with translation and commentary by Alexandre Piankoff which is the best source I have found to understand Ra and Wesirs connection.

It opens with an introduction to the concept of their uniting and forming an entity with a passage from the “book of the dead” ch 17.

Quote

I am His Two Souls in his Twins.

As to his Twins – it is Horus the Protector of his Father together with Horus, He of the Two eyes.

Others say:

His twos souls in his Twins – it is the soul of Re, it is the Soul of Osiris; it is the Soul of Shu, the Soul of Tefnut, the two Souls which are in Mendes.



He also quotes a Stella from Ramesses IV at Abydos:

Quote

When Re appears daily and reaches the Netherworld to take care of this land and also the other lands, thou also sitest like him, and it is said of you both, the Joined Soul (Ba-Demedj)*.
 

*Which in the is cited further to mean either “Soul (for manifestations) of the Substituted One” and the “Substituted One of the One Joined together.”

We then get to the Litany which is a lot to comprehend and contemplate and the spells to follow basically identify the King with Osiris and Ra with Osiris and as such Ra with the King. Its very interesting but typical of many books in the “after life genera”  after the litany itself just with very consistent reference to Ra.

I hope this helps in some way, there isn't a tremendous amount of information about this textually but there is some cool pictures out there especially in Amduat if you can find an illustrated translation.

As to my personal interpretation of how Wesir and Ra interact and if they are deep down the same entity, I'm not really sure. Sometimes they are one, sometimes they are two, but the texts to emphasize that they come together for mutual self regeneration and separate. At the same time they feel deeply connected as if they were one entity at times, but not in the same way most gods are sync up, the hole 1+1=3 thing. Its like looking at a huge serpent, with a head at each end, both are in control, both are different, yet they are one, and looking at different sections of the serpent relates very different information (and sometimes contradictory) than others. Its more like 1 =2 = 1 in nature.

I hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Baket on October 23, 2010, 04:28:02 pm
Quote from: Huyitu


He also quates a Stella from Ramesses IV at Abydos:

Quote

When Re appears daily and reaches the Netherworld to take care of this land and also the other lands, thou also sitest like him, and it is said of you both, the Joined Soul (Ba-Demedj)*.
 

*Which in the is cited further to mean either “Soul (for manifestations) of the Substituted One” and the “Substituted One of the One Joined together.”


Oh dear, I must watch too much "Bleach" ... while reading this I instantly thought, "Ra is the substitute Soul Reaper."   :grin:
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Khusisokar on October 31, 2010, 11:55:17 pm
The "Midnight Sun" aspect is indeed Sokar-Wesir.

It was kind of a gobsmack moment when Hemet informed me that my Father was 'the Midnight Sun'...considering that Alaska, one of the 'land of the midnight sun' places, is the place I still call home (though I've not lived there for years).

If I recall correctly,   THIS (http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/88700478/Premium-Archive) is actually one of the representations of Ra-Who-Is-Wesir (Not yet Sokar-Wesir.)

19th Dynasty Solar religion...one of these years I'll actually get it.  :D
Title: Re: Search/Ra/Ram
Post by: Satsenu on November 01, 2010, 08:02:00 am
Very interesting, Khusisokar! My first Beloved is Wesir-Sokar and, while not 'the Midnight Sun', He is the 'Darkened Sun'. ^_^