The House of Netjer, a Kemetic Orthodox Temple

[PUBLIC] About the Kemetic Orthodox Religion => [PUBLIC] Netjer (Our Gods & Goddesses) => Topic started by: TabauAmunet on February 16, 2012, 10:41:43 am

Title: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: TabauAmunet on February 16, 2012, 10:41:43 am
Em hotep all!

My Mother is Mut in Her form of Amunet.
There's tons of Sekhmet-Mut, Bast-Mut, etc kids out there! (/wave to my siblings!)

So, for all you -Mut kids, do you experience the 'normal' version of the other Name without Mut as well? Such as working with both Bast and Bast-Mut.

Do you work with the 'normal' version of Mut and the other Name as well?
Do you just work with the 'normal' version of Mut, the 'normal' version of the other Name, and the syncretization as well, for example?

If so, what kind of differences do you find between Them?

Senebty,
~Tabauamunet
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Bastmuttepta on February 16, 2012, 11:43:34 am
*waves back* :D I think you mean syncretization? Synchronization always makes me think of synchronized swimming... hehe.

Well, I'll start off with the normal disclaimer- this is my personal view, YMMV, etc. etc. take it as you will. ;)

As a child of Bast-Mut, I consider all of the Bastlings and Mutlings to be my siblings. My Mother IS Bast- and She IS Mut, all at once. Sometimes more Bast shines through, sometimes more Mut - But She is wholly *both*, at once, interwoven.

"Vanilla" Bast is warm, nurturing, loving, and filled with joy- but She is no coddler, and will not hesitate to give you a firm smack to the back of the head if you need a wake up call. She is fiercely protective of Her children.

My Mom is all of those things, but She is ALSO Mut. She is, in every respect, a Queen. She sets very high expectations for Her children to meet, and seems to want more than anything for them to realize how much they are worth and to meet their full potential. She is a Mother. She is also warm, but again- doesn't coddle. She is always there for you as a shoulder to cry on, but won't let you "wallow" - She'll just encourage you to brush yourself off, get back up, learn from your mistake and grow onward.

Sometimes, Mom presents Herself more "Bast." Sometimes, She presents more "Mut." Either way, She is always both, whichever bits are coming through most strongly at that time.

So, the differences I really see - Bast is Bast, Mut is Mut. Bast-Mut is Bast, Bast-Mut is Mut... but Mut is NOT Bast-Mut, and Bast is NOT Bast-Mut. ...Hopefully that makes sense ^.^;

For what it's worth, I do find a lot of similarities between Sekhmet-Mut and Bast-Mut. Peri and I visualize our Mothers virtually the same a lot of times, as I've never really gotten the brain-image of Mom as a domestic cat. She usually comes as a Lioness with the double crown (which Sekhmet-Mut appears as also), though also at times as a black panther. This is probably why I usually connect more strongly with icons of Sekhmet than that of Bast.

To throw another wrench in your gears, I also have vanilla Sekhmet in my lineup. I get Her as heat, blazing heat, like the fires of passion and inspiration. The type of fire that rises up in you and drives you. Bast is comforting warmth like basking in the Sun, but Sekhmet is pure heat.

They sometimes look very similar in my head (Bast-Mut and Sekhmet)... though in the rare occasion They appear together, it's always a black lion-headed woman (Bast-Mut) with the double crown, and a gold lion-headed woman (Sekhmet) with the Sun on Her head. I never get Sekhmet as the black lioness - only Bast-Mut.

I hope that jibber-jabber all makes sense... xD My head is soupy with kitties. ;P Don't even get me started on how interesting Mafdet makes things...

Senebty!
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Arienihethert on February 16, 2012, 06:33:00 pm
Quote from: TabauAmunet
So, for all you -Mut kids, do you experience the 'normal' version of the other Name without Mut as well? Do you work with the 'normal' version of Mut and the other Name as well? Do you just work with the 'normal' version of Mut, the 'normal' version of the other Name, and the syncretization as well, for example?

Yes. :D

Quote
If so, what kind of differences do you find between Them?

They're there, but they can be very subtle and I don't know that I could effectively describe any of them today (sorry, brain fried from school). I don't think about them much because they don't so much matter to anyone else. That, and I gave up thinking too hard about Mom a long time ago. ;) I get along pretty well just sticking to "yes, ma'am" and keeping at whatever she's got me working on.
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: TabauAmunet on February 17, 2012, 03:42:11 pm
Awesome, thanks for the replies!

(@Arieni My head is also fried from school lol.)

I experience both Mut and Amunet, which is strange for me lol. I have no real experience with syncretic Names, only aspected Names and Mother, so I've become terribly curious. :D

Sometimes Mother is more Queen and sometimes She is more Creatrix. In either form She is a Queen, but Her demands and preferences seem to differ vastly enough that I consider Them to be seperate at times.

Mut is very regal and stately in my experiences with Her. A very "yes ma'am" "no ma'am" type of feeling that I should be very proper. Very concerned with making sure roles are fulfilled properly. She strikes me as a strict Mother figure that is very defensive of Her children. Mut also has fairly expensive tastes.

Amunet is a Queen but a little more laid back, a very settled and comfortable Queen with few doubts for the respect She garners and deserves. She expects respect, but doesn't demand the same air of me. Amunet loves more meaningful offerings from me, more creation and activity offerings than Mut does.

I recently ran across some information on the internet relating to "From Fetish to God in Ancient Egypt" by E.A. Wallis Budge, describing Nit-Amenet, Ahat-Amenet, HetHert-Amenet, and Aset-Amenet, so that got me thinking! If Nit-Amenet is in fact a syncretization of Mother, I think I've run into Her on one or more occasions. And to throw some more wrenches into people's gears, I'm also a beloved of Seshat-Nit-NebtHet. So Nit-Amenet would be fascinating to me! (Not to mention he mentions Amenet as bisexual! More fascination!! -- Page 171 mentions all this info in Google books)

@Tepta: I also experience Sekhmet as a firey, almost scalding heat that leads to determination. Much like the concept of walking across coals to get to the other side lol. She is also different than Bast to me heat-wise. Bast is more of a cat-that's-been-laying-in-your-lap-and-you-didn't-notice-for-3-hours type of warmth to me.

Has anyone ever been approached by a syncretized Name rather than a 'vanilla' version of the Name? Perhaps running into Sekhmet-Mut before Sekhmet?

How about non-Mut syncretizations?

How about other syncretic Names? Do you also run into the individual Names as well? What about situations like Tanebet with multiple 'versions' of a Name in a line-up?? How similar/different are They for you?
Title: .
Post by: Naisenu on February 18, 2012, 09:47:49 am
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Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Niheri on February 18, 2012, 11:09:10 am
Em hotep, Tabau,

One of my Beloveds is Amun_Ra, and for me He is the "Syncretised" Amun-Ra. I have never been able to "distill"? the Amun from the Ra. For me, He is Both/And. Not Amun, not Ra, but Amun-Ra. It's really hard to explain, (mostly, I don't need to - He is Who He Is, and that's how I experience Him : ).

That was either really confusing, or possibly, slightly helpful! (I hope, helpful?).

Senebty,
Ni.
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Nityinepu on February 18, 2012, 12:50:42 pm
I pretty much agree with everything that Tepta has stated.  Bast-Mut is Bast with Mut's queenly edge.  Unlike her however, I get the distinct image of a large, black housecat wearing the Double Crown when I think of Bast-Mut.  I, too, have Sekhmet in my lineup, and while Sekhmet has no problem with pawsmacking me when I get out of line, Bast-Mut tends towards giving me the 'you know better' look.  You know, that look your mom used to give you when you were a kid and you did something stupid, but she let you because sometimes you just have to make your own mistakes?  Yeah.  THAT look.
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Taji on February 18, 2012, 01:53:48 pm
Quote from: Naisenu
In my experience, the Mut aspect of Bast-Mut makes Mama more like Sekhmet.


That's interesting.  :)  For me, I've experienced the -Mut (or something, anyway) make Her feel very close to Hethert.  There was a time when it was hard to tell my Mother and Hethert apart.  

I have a lot of thoughts on this topic, but not so shockingly they're really hard to get into words.  Royalty is definitely very important.  

But Mama is awesome.  And so are all the -Muts.  And Mut.  :D
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Bastmuttepta on February 18, 2012, 02:13:01 pm
I think I should clarify that, for me, Bast-Mut's Mut aspect doesn't make her more like Sekhmet- rather, that Bast-Mut and Sekhmet-Mut have a lot of similarities. Having both Bast-Mut and Sekhmet in my lineup, if Those two were similar it would be VERY confusing for me. x.x

Where vanilla Bast is more headslapping in the behavior correction department, when Her Mut aspect comes forward She definitely is more the type to give you that "...Really. You done now? Still think that was a good idea?" ;P

I think the way Peri and I have put it in the past is the Mut aspect makes them less... "action-y" and more into "directing." For an analogy... I guess I could say that vanilla Bast or Sekhmet would be the warrior that fights the battle, whereas Bast-Mut and Sekhmet-Mut would be the royals who order the attack. In Their youth, They would have been the ones to rush into battle as well, leading the attack, getting their paws dirty, etc... but now that They are responsible for the entire kingdom, They lead with wisdom and experience. ...if that makes ANY sense to anyone else besides me. ^.^;;;
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: TabauAmunet on February 18, 2012, 02:46:17 pm
I'd love to hear from more people about more and different syncretized Names!
Quote from: Niheri
I have never been able to "distill"? the Amun from the Ra. For me, He is Both/And. Not Amun, not Ra, but Amun-Ra.

Fascinating! It's nice to see it's a little different for everyone and different Names.

Quote from: Tepta

the Mut aspect makes them less... "action-y" and more into "directing." For an analogy... I guess I could say that vanilla Bast or Sekhmet would be the warrior that fights the battle, whereas Bast-Mut and Sekhmet-Mut would be the royals who order the attack. In Their youth, They would have been the ones to rush into battle as well, leading the attack, getting their paws dirty, etc... but now that They are responsible for the entire kingdom, They lead with wisdom and experience. ...if that makes ANY sense to anyone else besides me. ^.^;;;

This makes perfect sense to me! It also makes sense with Mut being a Mother Name, and Her Queenly aspects.

That's actually kind of where I was headed when pondering the difference between Mut and Amunet. Amunet is Queen-like, but She also has a very tactical and dangerous side - perhaps this is where the Amunet-Nit connection would come in? Or perhaps Amunet is kinda like Mut-Nit? I had a dream about that idea, but it's mostly fuzzy. Too bad, too, it was a great philosophical dream.

Mut usually tells me what She wants or directs me to what needs to be done, whereas Amunet kinda leads me to what She wants and shows me a little more directly. For example, Mut might ask for/tell/demand a nice offering, while Amunet would gesture to it and leave it up to me. Mut seems to like being 'spoiled' with very nice, or many, offerings whereas Amunet prefers offerings from the heart to quality or quantity.

Although Amunet feels older than Mut, She acts more youthful and active. Think springy, playful yet strict, grandma. She also seems to be more 'there' if that makes sense. Active is a very good word for it, actually. Perhaps Mut is an 'older' (as in age, not time) version of Amunet? Similar to Nefertem being a young Tem?

Sometimes Bast and Mut seem to collide for me, so I can kind of understand what you mean about Her being more directing. Bast on Her own has very few demands or wants from me, She mostly just seems to watch over me.
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Rev. Sema'a on February 18, 2012, 06:52:24 pm
Quote from: Tepta


Where vanilla Bast is more headslapping in the behavior correction department, when Her Mut aspect comes forward She definitely is more the type to give you that "...Really. You done now? Still think that was a good idea?" ;P

I think the way Peri and I have put it in the past is the Mut aspect makes them less... "action-y" and more into "directing." For an analogy... I guess I could say that vanilla Bast or Sekhmet would be the warrior that fights the battle, whereas Bast-Mut and Sekhmet-Mut would be the royals who order the attack. In Their youth, They would have been the ones to rush into battle as well, leading the attack, getting their paws dirty, etc... but now that They are responsible for the entire kingdom, They lead with wisdom and experience. ...if that makes ANY sense to anyone else besides me. ^.^;;;


This sums up everything I was going to say pretty well, actually. I see Sekhmet as very focused on actively working to correct imbalances and injustice, where Sekhmet-Mut is working to maintain balance and justice. She would be more in the governmental/legislative/judicial branch of the Netjeru, where Sekhmet would be more law enforcement.

She once told me, "I am Sekhmet Who knows better; I am Sekhmet who has learned more."

I definitely get Her as more likely to say "Well, now that you've done that, do you really think it was necessary/smart?" or "Are you done being unproductive yet? Good, now time for the real work."

I do have Bast as a beloved, but I think I get a very different Bast than most of Her children do; I get a very music/song/rejoicing oriented Bast, rather than the "devouring Lady" that many people seem to see. So I can't really compare Her to Bast-Mut very well.

Senebty,
Sobeq
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Bastmuttepta on February 18, 2012, 07:09:44 pm
Quote from: Sobeqsenu
This sums up everything I was going to say pretty well, actually. I see Sekhmet as very focused on actively working to correct imbalances and injustice, where Sekhmet-Mut is working to maintain balance and justice. She would be more in the governmental/legislative/judicial branch of the Netjeru, where Sekhmet would be more law enforcement.

She once told me, "I am Sekhmet Who knows better; I am Sekhmet who has learned more."


Thank you for making me feel less crazy ;) And I love that quote!
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Arienihethert on February 18, 2012, 07:22:01 pm
Quote from: Sobeqsenu
She would be more in the governmental/legislative/judicial branch of the Netjeru, where Sekhmet would be more law enforcement.

She once told me, "I am Sekhmet Who knows better; I am Sekhmet who has learned more."


Ding! There's a big-picture-ness about the -Mut, I think (for lack of a better word). And LOL at legislative Sekhmet! Suddenly my life makes so much more sense. ;)

Great conversation! Thanks for the questions and the answers, y'all. *big Mut-y hugs all around*
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Sekhmetbitu on February 19, 2012, 12:42:25 am
I have experienced Mut alone, Sekhmet with Mut flavor, and Meretseger, which is, as I understand, Not exactly Sekhmet and not exactly Mut. It's funny, though, when I get the inspiration to have a Mut Image, Mut must be fully human, not Sekhmet-Mut, despite Sekhmet being my Mother. If I could find a replica of this, it would be awesome:

http://tinyurl.com/7bb9wf7
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Ankhetbast on February 19, 2012, 05:19:06 am
Quote from: Sobeqsenu

She once told me, "I am Sekhmet Who knows better; I am Sekhmet who has learned more."


This is very interesting.  I will have to give it more thought.
Title: .
Post by: Naisenu on February 19, 2012, 09:59:22 am
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Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Itenumuti on February 19, 2012, 06:03:04 pm
Despite not knowing either Bast or Mut (or any -Muts) personally, I'm happy to jump in here because of this little snip:

Quote from: TabauAmunet
How about non-Mut syncretizations?

How about other syncretic Names? Do you also run into the individual Names as well?


My Mother is Hethert-Nut. She is Hethert-as-sky, Hethert-the-Celestial-Cow - there's no Sekhmet in Her. But I've also briefly encountered both Hethert and Nut as Themselves, separately from my Mother. (Bear with me; I tend to identify Netjeru by Their colors as I see them.)

Hethert-Nut is royal purple, a rich color like silks. Hethert Herself is a vivid bright red, shinier and more lively than Sekhmet-red (which is darker, like an ember in a hearth or the sky at dawn). Nut is a deep, almost-black blue. I even see Nut's stars differently from Hethert-Nut's - Nut's are silver, Hethert-Nut's gold.

As for personality difference... Hethert-Nut is joyous and expansive and vast, warm and huge and yet quiet. (I've compared Her to an summer night under an open sky with fireflies about.) Hethert is sharper, faster, louder, hotter - more the metallic jingling of bells than the tolling of a gong. Nut is just as big-feeling as Hethert-Nut, but Nut is cool or even cold where Hethert-Nut is warm. Nut is reserved and composed where Hethert-Nut is welcoming and inviting.

This thread has been such a pleasure to read - thank you all for sharing your insights!
Title: .
Post by: Naisenu on February 20, 2012, 11:41:27 am
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Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Itenumuti on February 20, 2012, 12:29:02 pm
Quote from: Naisenu
Emky, as a child of Hethert-Nut, is Sekhmet also present in your divination?


Nope. Hethert-Nut has no Sekhmet within Her. She is Hethert-as-cow, not Hethert-as-lion, as Hemet explained to me.

I know Sekhmet separately and have for years, but She is not in my lineup.
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Qefathethert on February 21, 2012, 04:50:59 pm
I'm still getting to know Bast-Mut, as my beloved, but She does tend to wander in and out like a cat, demanding attention at Her discretion. =3
I agree with Bast being very much like "laying in the sun warm", and I've gotten Her a couple of times as playful, but mostly as the weight of a very large cat (domestic, but even still, large for that) on my legs or lap, depending on where I am. Usually when I'm depressed. She's often very tactile in my perceptions of Her.
One thing that was distinctly Bast-Mut that happened, was She flatly told me that ALL my perfumes are now belong to her. Especially the nice boutique ones. She definitely acted like "you know these were mine to begin with, don't be silly about it."
I once saw straight-up Mut in a vision before my RPD, and it floored me. Her gown wasn't white or gold, but the best way I can describe it is as sunlight. Same color for Her royal vulture headdress. She was fully human, taller than all the other Names gathered around her, and definitely inspired awe. She inspired deep love and respect from me, and She did feel loving, in a slightly aloof, very dignified way. She was the distillation of Queen for me.  
Title: Re: Mut in syncretization with other Names
Post by: Sekhmetbitu on March 01, 2012, 01:28:00 am
Quote
I once saw straight-up Mut in a vision before my RPD, and it floored me. Her gown wasn't white or gold, but the best way I can describe it is as sunlight. Same color for Her royal vulture headdress. She was fully human, taller than all the other Names gathered around her, and definitely inspired awe. She inspired deep love and respect from me, and She did feel loving, in a slightly aloof, very dignified way. She was the distillation of Queen for me.


Yes, that is how I see Her as well. regal is the best word I can think to describe her; very much invested with female royal power.
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