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Author Topic: Christmas?  (Read 112374 times)

Offline Iaityinepu

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Re: Christmas?
« Reply #105 on: October 24, 2010, 09:33:01 am »
The other thing, that should be noted, whlst there are many academic sources about this kind of thing, in reality, Ancient Egyptian language is a Dead language, and it is quite possible (highly likely) that there are errors.  

So while the calendar used by the people of Kemetic Orthodox is right for US, does not necessarily make it void of errors.  Even if it is researched and compilled by a very respected and educated member of the faith.
Sat Yinepu-Wepwawet Meryt Satet her Amun-Ra
Iait (with an i, not an L): Adoring

I offer affordable guidance readings, distant healing and developmental courses.  Please take a look - Readings by Caroline

Offline Tanebet

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Re: Christmas?
« Reply #106 on: October 24, 2010, 11:10:32 am »
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
Thus, going by your August starting date, Heru-Sa-Aset was born on the January 26th. Third month of Peret: 11th day of Pamenot (Rekh-neds) devoted to the Netjer Amun-Ra. ;)
 


According to Winfried Barta in his article: "Der 2. Mondmonatstag als Geburtstag des Gottes Horus" Heru-Sa-Aset's birthday is on IV Peret 28.
Barta's Sources are Parker's Calenders (p.59) and Chassinat's Edfou V (p. 352 + 356)
On that day His birthday was celebrated in Edfu, Esna and Dendera. The additional info given was, that the day coincides with the 2nd day of lunar month

Senebty
Tanebet
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Tanebet »
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Offline Tanebet

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Re: Christmas?
« Reply #107 on: October 24, 2010, 11:27:40 am »
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
(Like when I was under the impression that Min was a child of Osiris) and with this they have never mentioned anything of the sort.  I ACCEPT what is believed here. I ACCEPT it :) The years starts when the star rises in Joliet in August... not in July like in antiquity.


There are a few ties between Min and Heru-Sa-Aset.
Annie Forgeau has in her book "Horus-fils-d’Isis" a chapter about Min. And so does Sandra Sandri in her book Har-pa-chred.
Both books are on my desk but I didn't read them yet
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Re: Christmas?
« Reply #108 on: October 25, 2010, 02:56:55 am »
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh

Let me just begin by me saying that I am not a woman, I am a man... well not a true man yet ;) I am not sure as to how it came to be believed I was a woman, seeing as I was being referred to as 'he' in earlier posts? Anyway, this little plunder aside, may I continue with this discussion? And please, be assured there is not hostility within me in regards to what has been developing here in the last few days.

The main calendar I possess places the year as starting in July due to the fact that this is when the Nile (which it still does to this day in July) floods. Yes, it is very true that the literal translation for Wep-renpet (Uep-rnp't) does mean 'Open Year', though, it is after the month of Wep-renpet passes, does the five days of nothing (the birthdays of Usir, Heru-ur, Aset, Set and Nebthert) occur. Based off the calendar I have, this would be in July. Though, now I understand why it is celebrated in August; because it is due in part to the rising of the dog star seris. Though... regardless of Wep-renpet meaning 'Open Year', with it falling at the end of the calendar system, does not hinder my beliefs that it is not the beginning of the year.  Do we not celebrate the 'opening' of the New Year in the previous? I believe Wep-Renpet, the month, got its name due in part to the fact that it was the last month of the old year, thus, bringing forth the new year once it end.  The Egyptians never liked to view things as closing; they loved to view things as opening! Does one not open new doors once dead?  Does the sun setting not signify the opening of the night?  Beyond this, the festival of Opet was celebrated once the Nile had flooded; not before.  We know this to be true because we have the beautiful carvings of this festival in Karnak; depicting barks and large ships sailing the Netjer down the river; and yes, we also see the priests carrying the naos of Amun-Ra from his White Chapel in Karnak to what is now known as the temple of Luxor (which was still Karnak (Waset) in antiquity. So, what does this signify. That Opet was celebrated once the Nile flooded. This happens in Akhet. Akhet does not occur in the month of Wep-Renpet, it occurs in Thuthi (Tekh). Wep-renpet is still in the season of Shemu.  I would image your beloved Nisut has called your New Year Celebration Wep-Renpet because is has a nice ring to its name “The Opening of the Year” when Opet means ' the rising' . Thus, the Opet Festival occurs when the Nile rises in Akhet, the first month of the New Year.  

To Tanebet: Yes, I for a few years, I believed Min to be a child of Usir. Let me explain. There are a few bad versions of the birth of Heru which makes one believe he had a sibling when Aset blew the Breath of Life in Usir. Who this sibling is is never clear; no names or nothing like the sort. I knew Min was the Seed of Life; being the vital essence needed to create Life. Seeing as Heru was literally born through a oral act of intercourse; I believed Min to be this illusive sibling. My beliefs for this grew greater because Min is called the 'Fragrant Rush' or the 'White Lotus'.  Seeing as Heru was kept in the reeds of the Nile for protection, it seemed to fit that Min was there to; as a flower. Though, after a year or so of believing this, Min, along with Usir, Aset, Heru and Amun-Ra began to give me signs that this was not true. Aset said 'I am the mother of only one from Usir,' and Amun-Ra told me to 'Look towards Ipet-Isut for the truth on Min.'  So I did, and I realized that Min is not the Child of Usir; he is an aspect of Amun-Ra.  Thus, Netjer told me that my view of Min was wrong/incorrect.  Though, with the issue above (a subject that I have been exploring for over two years) Netjer have not once given me an inclination that I am incorrect.  Needless to say, I ACCEPT and UNDERSTAND what is belied here.  

Senabty-Rh'ekh
Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
(No-one is born a sage) - IOPH

Offline Tanebet

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Re: Christmas?
« Reply #109 on: October 25, 2010, 03:27:11 am »
Em hotep Imsetra-Imsety *henu*,

The Beautiful Feast of Opet or Ipet refers to the Goddess Ipet, a hippo Goddess. (J. Murnane: Opetfest In: LÄ IV, 1982, S. 574-579.)
following the LADD, Volume 1, p216, the meaning of IP is counting and not rising

Senebty
Tanebet
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Re: Christmas?
« Reply #110 on: October 25, 2010, 03:37:37 am »
Em-Hotep

Ipet: is not the mother of Usir, that is Nut. Ipet (an aspect or essence of Twaret) was a wet nurse for Usir as a child; and also when he was resurrected... she was said to have nursed him into health again.  

Ip indeed does mean to count. But the Opet festival does not literally mean 'rising' this is the word wbn (weben= raise something up) I must made a slight mistake above. The Opet festival comes form the word ik (Iket) which means come or coming forth.
Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
(No-one is born a sage) - IOPH

Offline Tanebet

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Re: Christmas?
« Reply #111 on: October 25, 2010, 03:49:16 am »
Em Hoteo,


The full name of the festival was Heb-nefer-en-Ipet
(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opet-Fest)

I am sorry, but I do not understand where the conection to Iket comes from? Can you please exlpain?

thank you

Tanebet
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Re: Christmas?
« Reply #112 on: October 25, 2010, 03:49:50 am »
Also, just to clarify, during the New Kingdom (most notably under the reign of Ramesses II) the meaning behind the Opet Festival was changed to 'Secret Chamber' or more accurately: "The Festival of the Secret Chamber" (Heb Ipt). This was due in part to the tradition to move Amun-Ra and the other Netjers of Karnak from their chapels to Ipet-Resut, the southern temple at Waset or the temple of Luxor.
Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
(No-one is born a sage) - IOPH

Offline Tanebet

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Re: Christmas?
« Reply #113 on: October 25, 2010, 03:52:02 am »
This doesn't explain how "Iket" comes into play.
Additionally I would like to see a source for your "secret chamber" meaning statement
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 03:53:19 am by Tanebet »
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Offline Sedjemes

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Re: Christmas?
« Reply #114 on: October 25, 2010, 07:10:39 am »
That is rather...softly dismissive, don't you think, Imsetra, to say that Rev Siuda simply decided to call New Year Wep Renpet because it has a nice ring to its name? Forgive me but please--the Nisut has a Graduate degree in Philology, i.e. Egyptian language, from the University of Chicago, and has worked and studied alongside many scholars including linguists in the field.

But also--Calendars from antiquity from Middle Kingdom through New Kingdom indicate that "New Year" is shown to be Day 1 of the 1st month of the first season of Akhet, with the Epagomenal days after the end of the 4th month of the third season of Shomu. See Temple Festival Calendars of ancient Egypt by Sherif El-Shabban, Pgs 10, pgs 29, 57.

Parker in his _Calendars of Ancient EGypt_ also discusses at length how the feast of wep renpet, opening of the year, is to be properly celebrated on 1 Akhet 1, the first day of the civil calendar (which he also on pg 47 explained as properly together with teh birthday of Re which was felt appropriate to the ancient Egyptians.) I note that Parker discusses the term wp rnpt as having several different uses, including it being an intercalary month in the lunar calendar, not merely civil.

In any event, based on research and study, Kemetic Orthodox celebrate the turn of our religious calendar on 1 Akhet 1, preceded by the five epagomenal days. In August.

Opet festival, which is a completely different festival, was celebrated a bit later in the season of Akhet, which was the Inundation. (the word we transliterate as "Opet" does not mean "rising." Nor did that festival have anything to do with the beginning of either lunar or civil year. Ipet was a deity called in some Theban theology the mother of Wesir. (Wilkinson's _Complete Gods and Goddesses_ and Hart-s Dictionary of Gods and Goddesses_
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Sedjemes »
Khenmetaset ("Aset Gladdens")
Sedjemes ("She listens")
Daughter of Aset-Serqet, Meryt Ra her Sekhmet
Heri-Sesheta Aset-Serqet

Offline Tanebet

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Re: Christmas?
« Reply #115 on: October 25, 2010, 12:45:08 pm »
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
The Opet festival comes form the word ik (Iket) which means come or coming forth.  


Would you have the hieroglyphs for me?
I checked Hannig's "Grosses Handwoerterbuch Aegyptisch-Deutsch" and "Grosses Handwoerterbuch Deutsch-Aegyptisch" but couldn't find the meaning you suggested

the meanings of ik are
* to bemoan
* to attack/to challenge
* to grub, to use claws

the words given for coming forth are
* pri
* bsi
* hnt

the words for coming are
* ii
* iwi
* hAi
* xpr
* spr
* nwi
* nAi
* nms
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Offline Iaityinepu

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  • Country: au
Re: Christmas?
« Reply #116 on: October 26, 2010, 01:00:41 am »
I will also repost my quote earlier, on Wep Ronpet:

According to Ancient Egypt (2004), Wep Renpet

Quote
"literally the Opening of the Year"  - "was celebrated when the dog star Sirius, the brightest star in the sky, was sighted in the heliacal rising."


These were not my words, they were the quoted words.  Wep Ronpet was NOT the last day or last month of the year.  It was the first one.
Sat Yinepu-Wepwawet Meryt Satet her Amun-Ra
Iait (with an i, not an L): Adoring

I offer affordable guidance readings, distant healing and developmental courses.  Please take a look - Readings by Caroline

Re: Christmas?
« Reply #117 on: October 26, 2010, 04:33:13 am »
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh,

I have been up now for the past three hours trying to figure this out... (it's now 3am here) Anyway, let me yet again apologize for my ignorance. As I mentioned in a previous post, all of my assumptions on these matters were coming from the fact that I was under the impression that my calendar, with a July 19th starting date, was correct. Season wise it is in alignment, I believe, with the calendar used here.

Iaityinepu... I do recall sending you the calendar I possess; so I would assume you would have realized why my assumptions were flawed. (the month known as Wep-Renpet in that calendar is called Mesore: falling at the end of that calendar) If I sift the dates in my calendar, moving it by approximately a month, the days, I believe, match up with your calendar used here. Though, I can only assume this seeing as I do not possess your calendar to use as a reference.

After more research I have come to know that Opet was celebrated not in the first month of the new year, but rather on the first days of the second month of Akhet (Thuthi or Tekh)... is that what the second month of Akhet is known as here?

Please realize that I have been working off rather old information. As mentioned in another thread here I do not have any of my books of journals with me in Mexico; they are still back home in the states.  I had a 'dry-period' for about a year where I had no (including the internet) resources at my disposal... I understand now that I am very behind on my studies. The whole reason why I am here it to learn the ways of HON. To see if what I know about Netjer and related ideals are what are understood here.  

I cannot recall where I came across the original sources which quoted the Opet Festival as meaning/signifying the 'Secret Chamber' though I did stumble across this website about an hour ago which makes mention of it:

http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Opet.html

As far as my belief around the meaning of Opet, it had come from several places... again, do not have the books with me (I know, I am a pathetic student) The word Ik (Iket) can also sound like (Ikpet) and means literally 'come in' I believe you can find the word in the dictionary of this old reference website I have, but I have not used this site for sometime now so I can't be to sure.

http://hieroglyphs.net/0301/cgi/lookup.pl?ty=en&ch=a&cs=0

I can tell you what the word looks like however: It beginnings with a goose, followed by the symbol for hill over the symbol for legs or move (looks like an upside-down V with feet) and it is sometimes followed by the letter T.

Again, I apologize once more for my ignorance: I have been getting a lot of stuff wrong lately... I need to listen more closely to what my patron Amun-Ra told me “Opening your mind's thought to the listener with hast will cause you much trouble.” Basically, I need to think hard about by thought before I share them; I need to study better.

Senabty-Rh'ekh. :)
Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
(No-one is born a sage) - IOPH

Offline Iaityinepu

  • Shemsu
  • Country: au
Re: Christmas?
« Reply #118 on: October 26, 2010, 07:57:50 am »
Okay, as I have both Calendars (the one you sent me and the HoN official festival Calendar), I can tell you:

The months are not named the same, although they may be the same name in Greek - for your calendar, Kemetic - for the KO one, as some I can identify the greek-kemetic corrolation.

Most of the months honour the same Name, although there were some discrepencies, and there are some months in the KO calendar that honour 2 names, whereas your source only names one.

Some, but not many of the festivals line up (according to Kemetic Dates, not Gregorian).

One thing that I did notice with your calendar, is that it is heavily written using the Greek translations of Kemetic words.  Not that this should change the details, however, because Djehuty is Thoth and a story about Djehuty and a story about Thoth should be about the same thing.

Nowhere in your calendar, can I find reference to Wep Ronpet, even via a search function.  The Official KO Calendar States Wep Ronpet as the "Kemetic New Year" and is stated as being the first date of the first month of the first season.

It is a shame that your calendar is not an original source (as in you've copied it from another source) with the publishing details attached.  Because without this information, I have no reason not to think you just copied/pasted/edited to suit your own beliefs.

Your calendar, unfortunately, means little to me, as I don't have any direct reference, nor are you a qualified person to produce a calendar.  While it may have some similarities to the Calendar used by this religion, it is very lacking in credibility.

My sources for this post are:
Imsetra_Imsety The Sacred Calendar Sent to me on Sep 17, 2010

Tamara L. Siuda The Ancient Egyptian Prayerbook (2009) Stargazer Design. New Lenox, IL:USA

Tamara L. Siuda Kemetic Orthadox Festival Calendar August 2010-2011 (Year 18) (2010) Stargazer Design. New Lenox, IL:USA


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Iaityinepu »
Sat Yinepu-Wepwawet Meryt Satet her Amun-Ra
Iait (with an i, not an L): Adoring

I offer affordable guidance readings, distant healing and developmental courses.  Please take a look - Readings by Caroline

Offline Sedjemes

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Re: Christmas?
« Reply #119 on: October 26, 2010, 07:59:26 am »
Hotep Imsetra

You are not the first to have referred to a calendar which shows Wep Ronpet in July and you may not be the last. You may be the first who so strenuously chose to tell us we were wrong ;)

The page at http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Opet.html which you have cited before was designed and written when she was alive by The WEsir Asetmeri, one of our House Akhu and my Aset sister.

The word "ipet" is translated by Faulkner's Middle Egyptian Dictionary to mean either "harem" or "southern sanctuary" or even "secret chamber of the temple." Hart's Dictionary of Gods and Goddesses reminds us that Luxor temple was called Ipet-Resyt, or Southern Sanctuary, and the Amun temple at Karnak was called Ipet-Swt.

The sanctuary of every single temple in Egypt, from the earliest through the Ptoelamic period temples like Dendera and Philae etc, had sanctuaries which were the darkest and smallest rooms, where only the chief priests of the temple might enter. So, that sorta makes them inner chambers, and definitely "secret" in a sense :) Of course, calling an entire temple the Sanctuary has its own brand of coolness :)

One last comment--for us, as Kemetic Orthodox, we are not "students" as much as, well, Kemetic Orthodox. We are not "studying" the temples or the festival calendars or details about different sites or even about specific gods--we very well *might* study those but out of a personal interest and curiosity.

What we do most is *live* our faith. We pray to our gods for hel[, we pray for ourselves and each other, we pray to our gods in thanksgiving for blessings, we try as best we can to be responsible citizens, responsible human beings, responsible Kemetic believers.  We try to help each other as best we can when we can. Studying has less to do with that spiritual life than more.

 
Khenmetaset ("Aset Gladdens")
Sedjemes ("She listens")
Daughter of Aset-Serqet, Meryt Ra her Sekhmet
Heri-Sesheta Aset-Serqet

 


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