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Author Topic: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?  (Read 25815 times)

Offline Phoenix_Falls

  • Divined Remetj
Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« on: June 20, 2010, 12:58:24 pm »
I wasn't sure what section this would go in, but let me know if it's not the right place.

Before I really get into the meat of what I'm about to say, I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm an out lesbian and I've been out for about six years. This post is not meant to be inflammatory, argumentative, or homophobic, it's an honest curiosity of mine.

In the 42 Negative Confessions, I've seen Confession 12 variously translated as "I have not lain with men," "I have not committed homosexual acts," "I have not lain with a sex-slave," "I have not fornicated with a child," "I have not engaged in pedophilia."

A few years ago, I was having a conversation with a "friend" I no longer speak to about homosexuality and whether or not it's a disease brought on by mis-translated DNA or a mental issue that afflicts people who have had traumatic childhoods. Unfortunately, most of my arguments, while valid, fell on deaf ears simply because I was sexually abused as a child and thusly (in his mind) grew to be a lesbian.

I was recently having the same manner of discussion with a friend at dinner the other day and he brought up that a major tenet of all "positive" religions/spiritualities is that they reject homosexuality as being against the concept of spiritual and physical balance.

TANGENT:

As I said in my introductory post, I was raised partly by my great-grandma who was 97 when she went to the Sand Hills (The Sand Hills is a desert-like area of Southwestern Montana where the souls of the Niitsitapi/Blackfoot people go to live in the Afterlife. It's like an American Duat as the two are very similar in terms of structure and having to pass tests) and as such, she had a very traditional view on the world.

A lot of people don't know this about Native cultures as we are all (incorrectly) assumed to be patriarchal and a "less complicated" version of the way European society was set up, but gays, lesbians and transgendered/sexual people were widely accepted not just in my tribe, but across the North America (I can't speak on South American tribes as I haven't really studied them). The term we use today is "two-spirit" as a common belief among different tribes is that these people have been given their own cosmic balance on the inside. Instead of one spirit needing the balance of another, a two-spirit needs the balance of another two-spirit ( 2 = 2 vs 1 =/= 2) END TANGENT

Having this type of thinking firmly lodged in my grey-matter (and my heart for that matter), I tend to look at things disparaging homosexuality with an overly critical eye.   So my friend, whom I'll call R for the sake of reference, postulates that all religions and spiritualities that are developed and on the "right" track, reject homosexuality as a sin.

Of course, the first thing he shot out with, was the Leviticus verse of the Bible that condemns male-male homosexuality (I'm not picking on guys, it's just rare that female sexuality, let alone lesbianism is mentioned). I argued that the Bible is one of the most translated books in the world. It was written in Aramaic, then Hebrew, then Greek, then Latin, then English. It's like playing telephone from two thousand years ago. Bible scholars these days readily admit that the translations that are out there aren't really all that accurate to the Hebraic or Greek versions not to mention that every version of the Bible is more or less a different "viewpoint translation" in much the same way that Budge put a monotheistic Christian-slant on the ancient people of Kemet.

We went back and forth between arguing about translations, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc until he surprised me by bringing up The 42 Negative Confessions.

R knows I consider myself Kemetic and occasionally he'll ask me things, but we've never talked about it in depth and quite frankly, I was surprised to find out that he'd done some digging on his own (he also brought up the Euro-centric Kemeticism = Christianity argument) and to support himself, he claimed Confession 12 as proof that homosexuality is/was viewed as an affront to ma'at, an imbalance.

I paralleled the view of Blackfoot spirituality with Kemeticism, as has been said elsewhere, the two are very similar in terms of how the Divine is approached and how society behaves in relation to humanity's intrinsic spirituality but he claims the two aren't comparable because Natives weren't as technologically or "philosophically" (his words) advanced as the AE's.

I'm inclined to believe that Confession 12, like the Leviticus verse, is mistranslated, taken out of cultural context, and purposely molded to fit a certain, dominant, view.

I have seen that KO is pretty ambivalent about what consenting adults do behind closed doors, and I'm not really asking for KO's standpoint, but more or less what's your view? Is anything other than heterosexuality against the balance of ma'at? Why or why not? What should I have said to R to make him at least be open to the possibility of a reasonable discussion without attacking me, my past, my sexuality or the LGBTQ community at large? Should I have just let sleeping dogs lie?
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Offline Sedjemes

  • Semer-Wati
  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2010, 01:27:27 pm »
Em hotep

We are not ambivalent, precisely. As Kemetic Orthodox we simply do hold that what goes on between consenting adults in their own lives is certainly not the business of religion. Our gods are certainly not opposed to GLBT people. Our own membership from Remetj to priesthood includes people who have same-sex partners, who consider themselves bisexual and transgendered. We hold for a love and devotion to Netjer, to community and to humanity, nothing less or else.

Our Nisut Tamara Siuda, holding advanced degrees and able to translate hieroglyphs, has translated that passage as meaning to not have sex with a minor (boy-child particularly). It has nothing to do with, in her translation, with homosexuality (and I think also Faulkner's latest translation also does not specify homosexuality.

As for talking with one's friend or acquaintance about such matters--sometimes such conversations won't ever get beyond disagreement, especially if one has already concluded that "God" is opposed.  One can hope that one's friend, family and acquaintances know enough about one to know that one is just really a very good decent and moral person.

Senebty
Sedjemes
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Sedjemes »
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Offline Menemaset

  • Shemsu
Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2010, 01:38:58 pm »
Quote from: Sedjemes
Our Nisut Tamara Siuda, holding advanced degrees and able to translate hieroglyphs, has translated that passage as meaning to not have sex with a minor (boy-child particularly). It has nothing to do with, in her translation, with homosexuality (and I think also Faulkner's latest translation also does not specify homosexuality.


Em hotep, Phoenix! :)

A good thread to check out about this is the ongoing discussion of the 42 purifications by Raheri (and every body else who jumps in). Click here to see the specific post about the purification/negative confession in question. That thread is a good read in general. ;)

For those who don't want to go and read it, I'll quote Raheri's comment that's relevant to this discussion:

Quote from: Raheri
I would also like to bring something else up about this purification, that we commonly will find. Raymond Faulkner translates this purification as, “O He-of-the-Cavern who came forth from the West, I have not fornicated with the fornicator.” Another translation from Budge is, “Hail, Qerrti, who comest forth from Amentet, I have not committed adultery, I have not lain with men.” Hemet (AUS) has stated in her pamphlet on the Purifications that this purification is frequently mistranslated. The word used for intercourse is nek, which is a more vulgar form of the word. There is another word, nekek, which means “a prepubescent boy used to nek.”

It's amazing the difference a word can make.


Senebty,

Menem
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Menemaset »
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Offline Taji

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2010, 04:27:39 pm »
Quote from: Phoenix_Falls
Unfortunately, most of my arguments, while valid, fell on deaf ears simply because I was sexually abused as a child and thusly (in his mind) grew to be a lesbian.


Take it from a board certified shrink . . . that's crap. There is absolutely no evidence to support that sexual abuse can cause someone to become homosexual.  NONE.  If that were true, there'd be a lot more lesbians out there.  :(  Sexual abuse can, of course, impact sexuality in many many different ways.  But it doesn't fundamentally change who you are.  
Taseddjebbastmut,
Daughter of Bast-Mut
Beloved of Yinepu, Sekhmet, Set, Heru-wer, & Aset

Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2010, 07:51:38 pm »
Quote
So my friend, whom I'll call R for the sake of reference, postulates that all religions and spiritualities that are developed and on the "right" track, reject homosexuality as a sin.


Sounds like he picks his facts to suit his theories, rather than tailoring his theories to fit the facts.
"So the bodhisattva saves all beings, not by preaching sermons to them, but by showing them that they are delivered, they are liberated, by the act of not being able to stop changing." - Alan Watts

Offline NiankhSekhmet

  • Shemsu-Ankh
Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2010, 08:37:06 pm »
Em hotep!

I would say the answer to your question is, "No."

There will always be those who manipulate the data in order to serve their agenda, but as others have mentioned, Hemet has a degree in Egyptology and can translate the texts. What happens in private between private and consenting indivuduals is no one else's business but theirs. You and I both come from Indigenous, probably matrilineal cultures that did not concern themselves with how people conducted their private affairs. In that same vein, Kemetic Orthodoxy does not concern itself with the private affairs of consenting adults within its membership.

As for the person you were arguing with, the earliest sects of Hinduism did not have such pronouncements. The part of the Negative confession to which they refer really does pertain to the use of male, not yet adolescent children in place of women. I would advise that you take a look at the Faulkner translation that does not have such Judeo-Christian biases incorporated into it as others might have. Sadly, some of the Afrocentrist "translations" carry over this misinterpretation of that particular passage and the problem just keeps getting exacerbated and the mistranslation keeps getting quoted and the wrong assumptions are continually made as a result.

For the record, we have those within the priesthood, including myself, who are gay.  I have been with my current partner in excess of fifteen years and it certainly has been no detriment against my being a priest of Sekhmet.  We also have gay members who were married within this faith.

So to heck with those who insist on holding on to their prejudices.  Their opinions make no difference whatsoever here.

Senebty!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by NiankhSekhmet »
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Sat Sekhmet-Mut/HetHert
Meryt-Amun (Beloved of Amun)
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Offline Phoenix_Falls

  • Divined Remetj
Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2010, 01:16:13 pm »
Quote from: Sedjemes


Our Nisut Tamara Siuda, holding advanced degrees and able to translate hieroglyphs, has translated that passage as meaning to not have sex with a minor (boy-child particularly). It has nothing to do with, in her translation, with homosexuality (and I think also Faulkner's latest translation also does not specify homosexuality.

 


Thanks for clearing that up! I was wondering where the difference arose between translating it as "sex-slve/child/boy/pedophilia/whathaveyou" and "homosexuality." They couldn't both be right.
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Offline Phoenix_Falls

  • Divined Remetj
Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2010, 01:24:10 pm »
Quote from: Taji
Quote from: Phoenix_Falls
Unfortunately, most of my arguments, while valid, fell on deaf ears simply because I was sexually abused as a child and thusly (in his mind) grew to be a lesbian.


Take it from a board certified shrink . . . that's crap. There is absolutely no evidence to support that sexual abuse can cause someone to become homosexual.  NONE.  If that were true, there'd be a lot more lesbians out there.  :(  Sexual abuse can, of course, impact sexuality in many many different ways.  But it doesn't fundamentally change who you are.  


I thought it was crap too lol. I told him the same thing. Sexually abused women is such a (unfortunately) common occurance that if it were directly corrolated to being gay, there'd probably be more lesbians than straight women in the world. My abuse is a separate issue than my sexuality. Although one sometimes affects the other (I have PTSD), one doesn't cause the other.

We've agreed to disagree. There's really just no reasoning with some people. Especially if they can't take you seriously due to their own bias
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Offline Senedjem

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2010, 01:28:13 pm »
Hotep!

Is homosexuality against Ma'at? I will echo my agreement of Hemet's translation, she holding all the degrees qualifying her to translate this, and also add, I don't see how it could be against Ma'at. Things generally seen as against Ma'at are things that harm others or dishonor Netjer. Homosexuality harms no one.

Senebty

Offline Phoenix_Falls

  • Divined Remetj
Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2010, 01:31:37 pm »
Quote from: NiankhSekhmet
Em hotep!

I would say the answer to your question is, "No."

There will always be those who manipulate the data in order to serve their agenda, but as others have mentioned, Hemet has a degree in Egyptology and can translate the texts. What happens in private between private and consenting indivuduals is no one else's business but theirs. You and I both come from Indigenous, probably matrilineal cultures that did not concern themselves with how people conducted their private affairs. In that same vein, Kemetic Orthodoxy does not concern itself with the private affairs of consenting adults within its membership.

As for the person you were arguing with, the earliest sects of Hinduism did not have such pronouncements. The part of the Negative confession to which they refer really does pertain to the use of male, not yet adolescent children in place of women. I would advise that you take a look at the Faulkner translation that does not have such Judeo-Christian biases incorporated into it as others might have. Sadly, some of the Afrocentrist "translations" carry over this misinterpretation of that particular passage and the problem just keeps getting exacerbated and the mistranslation keeps getting quoted and the wrong assumptions are continually made as a result.

For the record, we have those within the priesthood, including myself, who are gay.  I have been with my current partner in excess of fifteen years and it certainly has been no detriment against my being a priest of Sekhmet.  We also have gay members who were married within this faith.

So to heck with those who insist on holding on to their prejudices.  Their opinions make no difference whatsoever here.

Senebty!

I really don't understand the concept of the Divine "hating" something that we have no control over. In my mind, hate isn't an emotion that the Divine projects on us/creation. We ourselves can't be hated, the things we do to ourselves and others? Sure. Isfet? Most certainly, but something as paltry and unimportant as sexual orientation, in the grand scheme of the pithy existence of humanity just doesn't seem like something Netjer would really be concerned about.

I think that reflecting our own human prejudice and biasses on Beings Above us is detrimental to our spiritual health and ability to understand what is Divine and what is Cosmic Balance/Ma'at.
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Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2010, 02:11:17 pm »
Quote from: Phoenix_Falls
I think that reflecting our own human prejudice and biasses on Beings Above us is detrimental to our spiritual health and ability to understand what is Divine and what is Cosmic Balance/Ma'at.  


As I've heard it said before, you know that you're creating the divine in your own image when it hates all the same people you do.
"So the bodhisattva saves all beings, not by preaching sermons to them, but by showing them that they are delivered, they are liberated, by the act of not being able to stop changing." - Alan Watts

Offline Devo

  • Remetj
Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2010, 02:14:31 pm »
I think that's a good quote- and I think it's often true.

Part of the reason I don't trust things like UPG is because you can never tell when someone is being honest about their gods, or placing their own biases onto their image of the gods.

-Devo
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Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2010, 02:34:47 pm »
I'm with you to a degree there Devo. However, following that to it's logical conclusion, then you also thus cannot trust any of your OWN experiences, and thus there is no point to any experience, spiritual, or otherwise, ever. Which I don't agree with.

It's a tricky thing and requires much careful thought and balance.
Timu

Sat Aset, meryt Wepwawet her Renenutet


Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2010, 02:35:43 pm »
But to stay on topic here,

Quote from: Wolf_Cub

As I've heard it said before, you know that you're creating the divine in your own image when it hates all the same people you do.


I really really love this..
Timu

Sat Aset, meryt Wepwawet her Renenutet


Offline Devo

  • Remetj
Re: Is Homosexuality Against Ma'at?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2010, 02:40:02 pm »
I agree that if you don't trust others UPG, it's hard to trust your own- logically. For me, I don't not trust ALL UPG, I just happen to try and remember that it isn't hard core fact. But I do that even to my own UPG- debating whether it was truly the gods, ro just myself.

-Devo
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