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Author Topic: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?  (Read 32455 times)

Offline The Tai'awepwawet System

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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2010, 05:40:31 pm »
I believe all Gods are made up from GodStuff. That is what I call Netjer (Divine power).

I would not however call them Netjeru, because that would be misleading. I use Kemetic terms only for Kemetic deities and scenarios where absolutely possible.
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Offline Rev. Shezatwepwawet

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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2010, 09:30:36 pm »
So do I. Odin would get pissy if I called Him of Netjer, for example.
Senebty,
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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2010, 11:36:20 pm »
Em Hotep!
@laityinepu  As always anyone is free to print anything I say (good or bad) for their own personal use.  The information isn't mine, I simply typed it out.

Also pertaining to the second question, imo, I think I answered it already.  They are NOT the same deities, but they work in the same "departments", hence having similar attributes.

As stated already, "Netjer" or "Names of Netjer" is a Kemetic term and only applies when used in relation to Kemetic deities.  One could say "Divine Power" or offshoots of "The One" or simply say they are "cousins" since relatively speaking they are related to one another, having sprung from the same Divine Essence, but being different in their personalities and and cultural influences as denoted by geographic location. Also the animals associated with certain "cousins", while perhaps belonging to the same Genus, do not belong to the same Species.  Wepwawet shares some similarities with the First Nations concept of Coyote, yet one is a Coyote and the other one is a Jackal (sometimes seen also as a Grey Wolf), but both are Canines.

Senebty,
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 11:47:26 pm by Kheper »
"Do not be arrogant because of your knowledge, but confer with the ignorant man as with the learned. For knowledge has no limits, and none has yet achieved perfection in it." - The Maxims of Pthahotep

Son of Hethert-Mut/Heru-Wer Beloved of Yinepu, Set and Djehuty

Offline Raheri

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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2010, 11:36:51 pm »
I hold the same attitude that our ancient brethen did. Other people's gods are other people's gods and just aren't important to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Raheri »
Sa Wesir-Sokar, mery Nut her Djehuty
Heri-sesheta Wesir

Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2010, 08:39:58 pm »
Em Hotep!

@Raheri  I think the original poster is trying to come to grips with something that many of us have struggled with.  Many of us having come from another religious background, we innately will see similarities (or our minds will try to see them) in what we used to revere and what we now revere or we're simply trying to put everything into context so as to understand why there is such a plethora of deities and how they all can be the creators or the opener of the way or whatever.  How can they (the deities) all say they are these things and it be true when they're from different cultures which are represented to those indigenous peoples as being the ONLY gods.  How does one rectify this in one's own mind when faced with the concept of other deities who say the same thing?
Looking at things from the narrow perspective of an indigenous people only their gods matter, but when looking at the bigger picture (the concept of multiple pantheons) then confusion is bound to occur.  This is what is being addressed here.

Bear in mind the ancient Kemet were born into their religion/culture.  Not many here can say that. Also our ancient brethren most likely didn't have the exposure to other religions that we do except when it came to trade with other nations.  We are all living in exile, the ancient Kemets weren't. Therefore it would be quite easy for them to say such a thing as they weren't constantly bombarded by other religions that impacted upon their daily lives, not until Kemets' downfall anyway. They were constantly surrounded by their priests, temples and statuary of Netjer.  The only place many of us have that is in a museum or at Tawy House.  

Senebty,
"Do not be arrogant because of your knowledge, but confer with the ignorant man as with the learned. For knowledge has no limits, and none has yet achieved perfection in it." - The Maxims of Pthahotep

Son of Hethert-Mut/Heru-Wer Beloved of Yinepu, Set and Djehuty

Offline TahekerutAset

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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2010, 10:17:39 pm »
Quote from: Kheper
Em Hotep!

How can they (the deities) all say they are these things and it be true when they're from different cultures which are represented to those indigenous peoples as being the ONLY gods.
 


I know this wasn't addressed to me, but it made me think so I wanted to reply.  

This doesn't seem to me what is going on here.  Kemet's gods are Kemet's gods. There is nothing there that says that other gods don't exist. Other gods did exist for the ancients and even some got incorporated into the pantheon (Anat, Astarte).  Indigenous people, as far as I know, aren't taught that their gods are the only gods.  The gods of their tribe or nation are just that the gods of their tribe or nation.  Other people's gods are other people's gods.  
 
The gods of the people, nation, family and/or profession were your gods.  These gods chose, interacted with and/or took care of your people.  Gods weren't as universal as they are now.  Other people's gods didn't matter since your gods watched over you and their gods watched over them.  

And when some of the ancients traveled they would not only bring their gods with them, but honor the gods of the native land where they traveled to or conquered.  



The great thing about polytheism is that all the gods exist and can be in multiple forms.  On another forum, a poster talks about all the different pantheons being families.  And every family needs an Opener of the Way, a sun god, a queen, a deity of the dead.  And the families can interact with each other and some deities get along and some don't.  And I do think the Unseen World is diverse and vast enough for this.  

Netjer to me is just the Kemetic gods and the idea of their "oneness" is because they can merge, fuse and overlap with each other.  This does not have anything to do with other pantheons. Their oneness is their oneness and their diversity is their diversity.  

I'm not about to go to my Heathen gods and call them Netjer.
They are Asynjur (goddesses) and the Aesir/Vanir.  They are a different family of gods.  

« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 10:20:10 pm by TahekerutAset »
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Offline Raheri

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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2010, 09:03:57 am »
Quote from: Kheper
Em Hotep!

How can they (the deities) all say they are these things and it be true when they're from different cultures which are represented to those indigenous peoples as being the ONLY gods.  How does one rectify this in one's own mind when faced with the concept of other deities who say the same thing?

Hotep Kheper! *henu*

I do understand what is being said here, but I feel that you have misunderstood me. I understand that people want answers to things that are sometimes unanswerable. I understand that people want explanations to the unexplainable. I am only speaking for myself, because I realize that there are a plethora of ideas out there and people want things to fit neatly in a box. I, however am not like those people. I personally fell that trying to explain the unexplainable, trying to understand that which cannot be understood would be a waste of my time (I would never get through a theology or philosophy school very easy).

For me, the nature of god is a mystery. I do not need to understand the mystery I just accept it. I do realize other people feel the need to intellectualize things and that is okay. For me though, it takes away from the beauty of god. God can be all of these things we have been talking about and at the same time none of those things. That is what is awesome about god, the mystery of whom or what god is.

So that is why other people’s gods are not important to me. I see that they are there. I accept they are real to those practitioners, but at the same time trying to understand how they fit into my paradigm is unimportant. What is important is my relationship to god, my brothers and sisters, and how I live my life.

Senebty,
Raheri
Sa Wesir-Sokar, mery Nut her Djehuty
Heri-sesheta Wesir

Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2010, 12:33:40 pm »
Em Hotep Raheri *henu*

Thanks for clarifying.

I guess my answer to the subject you brought up is the Gods WANT us to understand them and connect with them, otherwise they would have just ignored everyone.  I think the Netjer and all the other god/desses of other pantheons have an emotional need to connect with their creation, much like any human parent would want to connect with their children.  If they didn't care about us understanding them, then it seems reasonable they would have never made contact with any of us, not continued said contact and revealed things about themselves.  I think history has clearly shown that there is a need (on both sides) for that emotional and intellectual connection.  Otherwise there would be no concept of religion, the afterlife, etc.

*Henu*
Senebty,
"Do not be arrogant because of your knowledge, but confer with the ignorant man as with the learned. For knowledge has no limits, and none has yet achieved perfection in it." - The Maxims of Pthahotep

Son of Hethert-Mut/Heru-Wer Beloved of Yinepu, Set and Djehuty

Offline Sedjemes

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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2010, 12:49:26 pm »
Hotep!

I disagree that the gods need us to connect with Them. They certainly reciprocate attention. But through all the years we may never know they are there (some of us only discovered Them recently in our lives, for example, others of us discovered more of Them, for example), They still acted to care for us, probably. They are always There, God is always there, regardless of the form we think god takes or even the name by which we call god. It helps us understand Them in terms of human parents, but I believe Aset is going to be there, nudging me when She pleases, whether or not I talk with Her or give offerings to Her. Because that's just Her pleasure. She is going to be Aset in any case, just as She was before I existed and she will be after I exist.

In any case--even if gods want us to connect with them--we connect in the way that resonates for us. Which may mean we are devoted only to Norse gods or only to Roman gods or only to Hellene gods, or a combination thereof, as works for us. I don't have to think about the Hellene gods or even contemplate their existence, in order to accept that for some the Hellene gods offer more to their followers than do the Egyptian gods for them.

Just my thoughts :)
Khenmetaset ("Aset Gladdens")
Sedjemes ("She listens")
Daughter of Aset-Serqet, Meryt Ra her Sekhmet
Heri-Sesheta Aset-Serqet

Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2010, 12:54:06 pm »
Em Hotep

@Tahe
Quote
Indigenous people, as far as I know, aren't taught that their gods are the only gods.


I should have clarified.  From my experience with Christianity and Judaism, they are taught that all other gods are FALSE gods and that YHWH is the ONLY true god. The creator of all things, etc. All the others are simply pretenders.  Now the Bible does admit that other gods exist and that people themselves can be seen as gods (pharaoh being one example), but they weren't the true god and the Hebrews were told to stay away from them.  So I'm speaking from that particular standpoint. Having practiced in other pantheons such as Asatru and Druidry (to name a few) I know this isn't the case.
History does agree with what you have to say for the most part overall. One example is in Julius Caesar's writings he speaks about how certain deities of the British Celts are similar to those of the Roman pantheon and often made comparisons between the two.  But he never said they were the same, merely similar.

I just want it made clear that there are certain religions that have and do see themselves as worshipping the only true gods and that all others are false.  So therefore since many of us have come out of those religions or been exposed to them in one way or another, this topic is an attempt to understand what's going on.  The problem isn't with the deities, but with human narrow-mindedness in thinking a certain path has all the answers and everyone else is just plain wrong.  The history of those religions that follow this dogma has shown their great error (especially when they supposedly promote love and peace, while actively persecuting members of a faith not their own), yet they are seemingly unable to see the hypocrisy of their ways.
Pagan religions on the other hand do not seem to suffer from this disease.  When Alexander the Great would conquer a city, he allowed the residents to continue life as normal (including worship of their own deities) just so long as they paid a tribute to him.  The Romans for the most part allowed the same thing too, although there were certain exceptions.  The Temple built by Herod was destroyed by Rome as a lesson to the Jews for their defiance, having little to do with Rome's attitude towards religion and more to do with teaching the Jews a lesson in humility and reminding them of who their masters were.

So I hope I clarified what I was trying to get across.

Senebty,
"Do not be arrogant because of your knowledge, but confer with the ignorant man as with the learned. For knowledge has no limits, and none has yet achieved perfection in it." - The Maxims of Pthahotep

Son of Hethert-Mut/Heru-Wer Beloved of Yinepu, Set and Djehuty

Offline ubenet

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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2010, 01:13:07 pm »
Quote from: Kheper
I guess my answer to the subject you brought up is the Gods WANT us to understand them and connect with them, otherwise they would have just ignored everyone.  I think the Netjer and all the other god/desses of other pantheons have an emotional need to connect with their creation, much like any human parent would want to connect with their children.  If they didn't care about us understanding them, then it seems reasonable they would have never made contact with any of us, not continued said contact and revealed things about themselves.  I think history has clearly shown that there is a need (on both sides) for that emotional and intellectual connection.  Otherwise there would be no concept of religion, the afterlife, etc.


but i don't think ALL GODS want ALL PEOPLE to connect with ALL OF THEM.  the gods that want me to connect with them are the kemetic ones, and once in a very long while, a roman one.  the fact that other gods want to connect with other people is not a big deal for me.  a friend of mine is devoted to Brigid, and sometimes we have long conversations about our religious practices and experiences and their similarities and differences, but Brigid doesn't particularly want my attention, and Sekhmet doesn't particularly want hers.  
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Offline Sedjemes

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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2010, 01:17:05 pm »
Hotep

THe Romans were most definitely not as tolerant toward gods of other pantheons. At least not at the state level. Several emperors did not want Isis or Cybele worship in Rome or the outer environs, and closed down many of those temples (although that changed on and off.)  

Also, several of the Germanic chieftains pre-Christianity did not want their people to convert to this new religion.

Pagans were not necessarily any more tolerant than Jews or Christians might have been. Jews lived in Alexandria and Elephantine. And there were regions where Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together in harmony once upon a time. It has more to do with a people than an overall faith.

History aside, we sometimes here have people who come asking us what we as Kemetic Orthodox think of the gods of other pantheons. When any of us say that we don't consider those gods--we really do mean just that. It is not meant as any judgment, we don't mean we think those gods are false. Our gods are ours, and we don't have any opinion either on whether or not other pantheons consider our gods, nor do we think that if they don't consider our gods that they mean ours are false. Our gods and our practices don't require their acceptance, nor do their gods and practice require our acceptance.

What history does or does not record may or may not affect our opinions here.

Responses posted herein are generally truly meant just so simply. No muss, no fuss.
Khenmetaset ("Aset Gladdens")
Sedjemes ("She listens")
Daughter of Aset-Serqet, Meryt Ra her Sekhmet
Heri-Sesheta Aset-Serqet

Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2010, 02:09:51 pm »
Em hotep

@ubenetsenu

It wasn't my intention to imply that ALL gods want to connect with ALL of us.  Only to say certain gods that we seem drawn to or are drawn to us seem to want that connection.
Sorry I thought I was clear about that.

@ Kai Imakhu Sedjemes  *Henu*

Well said.  I was just replying to what the original poster asked and giving my own personal opinion and not necessarily what the Kemetic Orthodox view on other gods is.

Senebty
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 02:11:27 pm by Kheper »
"Do not be arrogant because of your knowledge, but confer with the ignorant man as with the learned. For knowledge has no limits, and none has yet achieved perfection in it." - The Maxims of Pthahotep

Son of Hethert-Mut/Heru-Wer Beloved of Yinepu, Set and Djehuty

Offline Paymaayinepu

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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2010, 12:28:47 pm »
Hotep,

I know I'm terribly late to the game, nonetheless....

I believe that the Divine, in Its purest entirety, is unknowable; It is is so massive, so incomprehensibly amazing, that to even try and distill It into one of Its many forms, e.g. the Sun, still leaves it too amazing and incomprehensible for humans to fully grasp.

So while I believe that Apollo is not Ra, that the two deities are completely different entities, I also believe that they could both be the Sun. What makes the Sun Apollo or Ra is the human element, that is, the nature of the person considering the Sun.

However, that is not to say that Apollo's or Ra's existence is dependent upon humanity. I believe the Gods are there regardless of our existence. But I wonder if Who we interact with is as much due in part to who we are as Who They are.
Payma'a
Payma'ayinepu
"This one, Yinepu guides"
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Offline Iaityinepu

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Re: A question about how this faith sees other Gods?
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2011, 01:18:15 am »
I guess, Payma'a, that you could say that Apollo and Ra are both the sun, just as Sir Sean Connery and Pierce Brosnan are James Bond.  Depending on which movie (or in the case of the Gods, which Culture) would depend on who it was...
Sat Yinepu-Wepwawet Meryt Satet her Amun-Ra
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