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Author Topic: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt  (Read 73838 times)

Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« on: September 16, 2010, 02:11:49 pm »
I have Done some work on showing how the Tarot originated in Ancient Egypt. And want to put it out there. First stop without further ado is chaps 144-150 of the BoD - I use Budge Saite recension and have Falconerv( Brit Museum) to help me where you will find the original Tarot in it s entirety. Except for the suits which are in the vestibule of the inner Temple at Philae. I bring it all out in due course.
  Tarot in Egypt
Still writing this site

Offline Sedjemes

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Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 03:31:20 pm »
Hotep

Where do you find the inscriptions from Philae, I would be very interested in seeing the original glyphs?

I am curious, have you read _THe Ancient Egy[tian Books of the Afterlife by Erik Hornung translated by David Lorton, which has a section talking about the BOok of Gates, which seems to be what Budge refers thereto. Also, Faulkner's translation of the Book of Coming Forth by Day, the most current, I think, translation to date, also discusses the "Saite recension" on pg 141 of the book published in 1998.

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Sedjemes ("She listens")
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Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 07:22:33 pm »
Thank you Sedjems - I have been there and got some pics
  [img:left]http://www.followersofhorus.comule.com/Isisvesti.jpg[/img] The cobras on the left are titled '14 Cobras greatly feared'. To the right is another freize '14 Bulls great roarer' ( out of shot). Elsewhere in the tiny antichamber is " 14Lions lord of the Spear " and " 14 Hawks Lord of the knife " Each carving is 14 identical pics. I first heard about them in some archeologist book. They are in my view he original suits of the minor arcana. I will unravel the deductions over the next posts. Had poor camera - my bulls are blurred.
Budge is most voluminous with many  extra renderings of the same material (Nu, Ani etc). Faulkner has translated more words so both are useful. Budge also has much extra material and comment  -invaluable.

Offline Sedjemes

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Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 07:31:57 pm »
I see :)

Interesting. I don't agree with your findings, but that's ok. It is still all very interesting :)
Khenmetaset ("Aset Gladdens")
Sedjemes ("She listens")
Daughter of Aset-Serqet, Meryt Ra her Sekhmet
Heri-Sesheta Aset-Serqet

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 09:22:42 pm »
A deck of cards had its origins in ancient Egyptian stone tablets. Life is beginning to resemble anime...
"So the bodhisattva saves all beings, not by preaching sermons to them, but by showing them that they are delivered, they are liberated, by the act of not being able to stop changing." - Alan Watts

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 11:01:52 pm »
I find it to be plausible that the 'idea' for tera cards might have come from these inscriptions... though the true meaning of the inscriptions were most definitely misinterpreted. For example: "And the Osiris N (decease's name) will rise from his tomb and live forever and ever..." this did not mean the mummy was going to come back to life, it meant the mummy's Ba.  

PS... I know what you mean Wolf Cub.  I had a friend who back in the six grade was convinced that Yugio came straight from Egyptian carving. LOL!
Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
(No-one is born a sage) - IOPH

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2010, 11:41:53 am »
Sedjemes - you need to be patient with the argument as I present it in the coming weeks. However an interesting and very recent discovery - if you look at Trump 21 you will see 4 animals round the wreath. Oddly enough these are not wands, cups, swords and pentacles as you might expect but  bulls, lions, men and eagles.
However the next piece is chaps  149 and 150 to connect the book of the dead with the Minor Arcana and the Temple of Philae.

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2010, 01:33:18 pm »
I think we can all agree it sounds like an interesting theory. I personally don't understand/see how you've made those connections, but everyone's perspectives are different.
Timu

Sat Aset, meryt Wepwawet her Renenutet


Offline NiankhSekhmet

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Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2010, 04:13:58 pm »
Most tarot professionals, no matter how enticing the lure of putting tarot's roots in ancient Egypt, will disagree with your findings. I once thought as you did as far as the origins being in Ancient Egypt, but the more research I did on both sides, the more I am convinced that you just cannot simply overlay one system on top of another.

Your research sounds interesting, and I would love for it to be that simple. The symbols are not consistent between Eastern and Western models. I look forward to seeing your entire thesis and how you end up presenting it. I do not doubt your sincerity. However, I do admit that I am still a little skeptical.
NiankhSekhmet
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Offline Khesretitui

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Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2010, 06:47:48 pm »
It is important, too, to articulate your arguments clearly. The Western rhetorical tradition, with its roots in Classical oratory, requires that we assert our point, provide the full body of our evidence, and interpret that evidence clearly for our audience.

Should any of that be missing, it is natural for the audience to feel that the argument is incomplete regardless of how the writer or speaker may feel about it.

Thus, I would recommend presenting all of your data at once and with substantial explanation.

I will admit my skepticism in the matter, but I certainly welcome your evidence and your interpretation thereof.
Khesretitui
"My Fathers Dispel Evil"

Sat Set her Ra-Heruakhety
Meryt Heru-wer her Yinepu-Wepwawet

I provide writing, editing, and tutoring services in exchange for donations to the House. PM me for details.

Offline ubenetsenu

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Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2010, 08:57:39 pm »
Quote from: Alman
Sedjemes - you need to be patient with the argument as I present it in the coming weeks. However an interesting and very recent discovery - if you look at Trump 21 you will see 4 animals round the wreath. Oddly enough these are not wands, cups, swords and pentacles as you might expect but  bulls, lions, men and eagles.
However the next piece is chaps  149 and 150 to connect the book of the dead with the Minor Arcana and the Temple of Philae.


i'm not sure why you think it's odd or recent that the world card has a man, a bull, a lion, and an eagle surrounding it.  those are the traditional depictions of the four evangelists:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists
ubenetsenu - "two appear shining"
sat Sekhmet-Mut her Khonsu
meryt Wesir her Serqet-Aset
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Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2010, 09:15:55 pm »
Quote from: Wolf_Cub
A deck of cards had its origins in ancient Egyptian stone tablets. Life is beginning to resemble anime...

Zing!


I have heard this theory before, but I have yet to see any sort of side-by-side comparison that suggests the Tarot was substantially based on any ancient Egyptian divination system or body of art.  I am interested to see what you've come up with.
Son of Set and Wepwawet-Yinepu.
Beloved of Sekhmet-Hethert, Heru-Wer, and Aset-Serqet.

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2010, 06:51:53 am »
 Here is a bit more. Unfortunately I have to drip feed you  in a forum. We now look at chap 149, which has exactly 14 divisions of Sekhet Aaru or the Elysian fields. I have put the chap. in colour.   Minor Arcana  Does the mystery essence etc correspond with the Modern Tarot -earily - yes.
Are they numbered -Yes 1-14 in Egyptian.
  [img:left]http://www.followersofhorus.comule.com/aatsfull.jpg[/img]  But there are no 4 direction here so how do we get them to 14 x 4 to correspond with suits in Philae. Well now chap 150 which is shows 15 Aats. In fact they are not numbered and one  is most likely a chapter heading. The most important bit is however the 4 little snakes at he head which  all interpretors with no axe to grind consider to  be the 4 directions. So QED for the minor Arcana.
     But you will say -where are the Major Arcana? If what you say is wholly true then they must be in these chapters 'Entering the House of Osiris ' Yes several versions - 21 secret pillars in the house of Osiris chaps  149 -150. The 22 second is the fool already  recognised from early the 0 card so just in Egypt a robed figure with a waser staff and sometimes the missus.
I am really sorry about the drip feed and will public one single long article for public access.
I knew about the animals in the old testament I think there are also men serpents bulls and lions but no numbers. On balance I would not attache a great significance to its place on the 21st card  but remember these 4 animals look like they came from Egypt as did the hymn to Ra and other bits scattered throughout the Christian Bible.
However the next bit is analysis of the 21 trumps or the Secret  pillars in Abydos ritual.. So take a deep breath and be prepared to look at the evidence with an open  mind.

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2010, 12:53:43 am »
I am more familiar with the imagery on the Tarot than the inscriptions you're referring to, so consider this post a set of inquiries from an obligate skeptic.

I want to know where you are getting the idea that bulls, lions, serpents, and hawks correspond to the four suits of the Tarot.  I am reading on your site (I assume it's yours, anyway) this:
Quote
Wands, Cups Swords and Pentacles, how do they equivocate to Bulls, Uraei(serpents), Lions, Hawks. I leave this to you.

I am curious to learn why you think they correspond with each other if you don't know which corresponds to which.  The only similarities I can see on the surface here are that there are four of them.  That is not substantially similar to me.  A lot of things come in fours, and while we humans are old pros at shoehorning concepts from one culture into another, it's not necessarily causal.

Quote
The most important bit is however the 4 little snakes at he head which all interpretors with no axe to grind consider to be the 4 directions. So QED for the minor Arcana.


Do you have a citation for that?  Your pictures are very small and so I can't see them very well, but nothing about them screams "four directions" to me.  I'm not saying they're not (I am an obligate skeptic but I understand a lot of things represent the four directions that don't look like it at first glance), but I would like the opportunity to see that there are people out there who actually say this other than you and your group.

To be honest I only single this out because I consider statements like "[interpreters] with no axe to grind" to be suspicious.  It strikes me as very "everyone has an ulterior motive except us," which I don't think is appropriate.

Quote
On balance I would not attache a great significance to its place on the 21st card but remember these 4 animals look like they came from Egypt as did the hymn to Ra and other bits scattered throughout the Christian Bible.


As Ubenet said, there is already a traditional explanation in place for card 21 to have those figures without delving into ancient Egypt, especially considering they aren't actually the same figures.  I also feel that they only look like they come from Egypt if you are dead set on believing they do.

The iconography on Tarot decks strikes me as more Christian than ancient Egyptian, excluding later variations on the symbolism by people who either believed or manufactured the belief that they originated in ancient Egypt.  At that time it was popular to attribute Egyptian origin to things because quite frankly nobody could understand hieroglyphs and it was easy to get away with it... so words such as Tarot and Ouija were explained away with "Oh, it's an ancient Egyptian word."

Quote
So take a deep breath and be prepared to look at the evidence with an open mind.

I certainly will, but please do not take our skepticism as narrow-mindedness.  One cannot be so open-minded that they lose all critical thinking.  Sorry if my tone here is a little rough looking, as that's not my intent.  I am actually quite curious to see what associations you have made with the major arcana, which I am much more familiar with than the minor arcana.
Son of Set and Wepwawet-Yinepu.
Beloved of Sekhmet-Hethert, Heru-Wer, and Aset-Serqet.

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2010, 06:00:09 pm »
I would also like to know where you are getting the majority of your information as well, most of it seems like guesswork: This looks goo here, so I'll place this over here because it sounds go with this info over here.... While this all sounds like a good idea for a harry potter style book, it just does not seem to hold much substantial ground.

Also, I would like to know how you can beginning to connect these ancient symbols from antiquity with the more European symbols of traditional tarot cards.  And, with your citation of the four snakes representing the four directions, well I would honestly have to say you are mistaken with this idea.  In Egyptian funerary texts, the four snakes situated above one another does not represent directions, either represents the power of 'a' snake; or it is the representation of He Who Shall Not Be Named; or an aspect of him.  

Also, as it was mentioned above, the words tarot and Ouiji are not from the ancient Egyptian language.  The word Ouiji does not come close to meaning anything, and the word tarot only comes close to one word which is tr3 (pronounced T'i-ra) which translates to meaning season.  Example: T'ra-mu-Akhet... in the Season of Akhet.        

[img:center]http://i52.tinypic.com/16lfs03.png[/img]
Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
(No-one is born a sage) - IOPH

 


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