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Author Topic: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt  (Read 73806 times)

Offline Khesretitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2010, 06:13:57 pm »
Alman: Please include a list of works cited (also known as references or a bibliography). You information is fascinating, but it is difficult to follow your points without knowing what sources you use.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Khesretitui »
Khesretitui
"My Fathers Dispel Evil"

Sat Set her Ra-Heruakhety
Meryt Heru-wer her Yinepu-Wepwawet

I provide writing, editing, and tutoring services in exchange for donations to the House. PM me for details.

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2010, 06:37:43 pm »
1/ Both Budge and Faulkener 2 of the fourmost scholars of th 20th centuary consider this to be so. The 4 rudders of heaven is also part of this ritual or teaching. Bet thing is get BoD from library if you are not an AE fan- this site is an AE spiritual site - which is why I am posting here.
2/ I am not shoehorning anything  -you will have to find the unknown medeival authors to find out. What texts they had I can only guess. But the libraries of Islam in North Africa and Egypt were very vaste. They translated anything and everything while Xtians burned and destroyed.
3/  Now four a real piece of shoe horning. If I turn to No15 of the Tarot you will know what it classically looks like
Here is the 15th Pylon. Homage 15th pillar of the still heart, I have made my way I know your name etc - Fiend red of hair and eyes who  comes forth by night and chains the fiend in his lair.
Waite rider version here http://wapedia.mobi/en/File:RWS_Tarot_15_Devil.jpg
you no who of course.
now do a stars wars odds evaluation of that happening by chance
Here is another
Homage ninth pillar - Lady of Strength, she who is in the front who gives birth to her lord.
  [img:left]http://www.followersofhorus.comule.com/9pillar8.jpg[/img]  Yes the number is 11 in Tarot Marseilles or 8 elsewhere  We just note how the medieval man neatly rephrases the drawing to artistic effect but leaves he meaning  quite intact. This is one of only 12 known graphics of this chapter (1st 12)
The chapter graduates in Egypt and normal Tarot, so that 21  is the exit card to the minor Arcana which is why the  4 animals are significant - it suggests the author had some idea what the original  suits were.
Are your pleas for a Xtian Tarot heard by yourself. Or Was it invented by gambling lotharios to pass the time. To this day Xtians and gamblers are  equally horified by the Tarot and it is bought in its millions by Pagans.
If you can open an Eye on this you will fly up into  the sky and see Ra - if you cannot you will have to travel the bumpy road or another road.

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2010, 07:27:00 pm »
Okay, I think I'm on the same page here.  I have a copy of the pylons in front of me and two decks of Tarot cards.  And I still respectfully disagree.  A side-by-side comparison does not sufficiently dazzle me into thinking the Tarot was invented with the Book of Coming Forth by Day in mind.  That doesn't mean I disagree with using the Tarot as a reflection tool, even in a Kemetic context, but I see no actual historical connection.

Quote from: Alman
1/ Both Budge and Faulkener 2 of the fourmost scholars of th 20th centuary consider this to be so. The 4 rudders of heaven is also part of this ritual or teaching. Bet thing is get BoD from library if you are not an AE fan- this site is an AE spiritual site - which is why I am posting here.

Where?  Saying "Budge and Faulkner said it" is not a citation.  I want to know what exactly they said that led you to this conclusion and where they said it.  I should also mention that not everybody here is a fan of Budge.

I said absolutely nothing about not being a "fan" of ancient Egypt, only that I am more familiar with the images of the Tarot than the particular inscriptions and works you are referring to.  I am a Shemsu of the Kemetic Orthodox religion.

Quote from: Alman
2/ I am not shoehorning anything  -you will have to find the unknown medeival authors to find out. What texts they had I can only guess. But the libraries of Islam in North Africa and Egypt were very vaste. They translated anything and everything while Xtians burned and destroyed.

Can I please request that you not refer to Christians as "Xtians?"  I'm not a Christian, but I consider it rude.

I also think it's very suspect to start talking about unknown authors and destroyed texts when I've asked you to tell us where you're getting your information.  You are giving an incomplete answer which is not going to work if you are trying to change minds here.  If you do not have an actual, non-destroyed source telling you that these four animals each correspond to those four card suits, why do you feel they do?  I want to read your opinion on this.

Quote from: Alman
The chapter graduates in Egypt and normal Tarot, so that 21  is the exit card to the minor Arcana which is why the  4 animals are significant - it suggests the author had some idea what the original  suits were.

Or it suggests that they were familiar with the other contexts in which those four animals were being used--by Christians--at the time period in which Tarot was invented.

Quote from: Alman
Are your pleas for a Xtian Tarot heard by yourself. Or Was it invented by gambling lotharios to pass the time. To this day Xtians and gamblers are equally horified by the Tarot and it is bought in its millions by Pagans.

There are no pleas here, only simple history.  Just because we use Tarot as a divination system doesn't mean it always was.  Its adoption by occultists, pagans, and new agers means absolutely nothing with regard to its history.  Furthermore, you are generalizing Christians, among whom many are Tarot readers (some recently have even been using it as an evangelistic tool because of its obvious Christian symbolism).

Also I think you are mistaking my intentions here.  Just because I understand Tarot to have been invented as a playing card game does not mean I downplay its significance as a religious and spiritual tool.  You have to understand that when they were invented, life was more saturated with religious symbolism... so it's not at all shocking or weird to see religious concepts molded into art on something we would consider so mundane and everyday.

Can I ask what you have against Christians that you are so resistant to the idea that maybe Tarot was invented by them?


Finally, if this discussion grows in intensity too much I'm afraid I will have to respectfully duck out of it.  There is a point at which even simple debate can become mean-spirited and I don't want to be a part of that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Setkheni_itw »
Son of Set and Wepwawet-Yinepu.
Beloved of Sekhmet-Hethert, Heru-Wer, and Aset-Serqet.

Offline Khesretitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2010, 07:36:57 pm »
Quote from: Setkheni_itw

Where?  Saying "Budge and Faulkner said it" is not a citation.  I want to know what exactly they said that led you to this conclusion and where they said it.  I should also mention that not everybody here is a fan of Budge.


Indeed. I have made the same request. Please provide your audience with complete citations. This includes the title of the book; the author; when, where, and by whom it was published; and the page number(s) of the relevant passages. All scholarly work requires this material in order to be considered viable. Otherwise it is at best mere hearsay and rumor. At worst it is plagiarism to fail to give credit where credit is due another.

Quote from: Setkheni_itw

I also think it's very suspect to start talking about unknown authors and destroyed texts when I've asked you to tell us where you're getting your information.  You are giving an incomplete answer which is not going to work if you are trying to change minds here.  If you do not have an actual, non-destroyed source telling you that these four animals each correspond to those four card suits, why do you feel they do?  I want to read your opinion on this.


Precisely, brother. Thus far I remain unconvinced, and with each dodge and apparently condescending one-off, I become less likely to be convinced.

Mr. Alman, all that has been requested is the location of the material from which this assertion was derived. Only when we have this information can we engage you in scholarly debate about such matters. To assert that you have access to some manner of secret knowledge and to then fail to supply that knowledge does not suffice, based upon my training, for academic argumentation.

All that said, I request one more time that you provide your sources to us according to the aforementioned guidelines. It is not overmuch to ask, and I would request as much from anyone else (and do).
Khesretitui
"My Fathers Dispel Evil"

Sat Set her Ra-Heruakhety
Meryt Heru-wer her Yinepu-Wepwawet

I provide writing, editing, and tutoring services in exchange for donations to the House. PM me for details.

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2010, 09:35:25 pm »
This whole thing is beginning to bother me.  If you (Alman) are trying to preach that the 'idea' for tarot cards came form ancient Egyptian glyphs portrayed on temple wall, I might lean towards you, though I would still be very hesitant in accepting it as an absolute.  First, 'playing' cards in general were not even around until sometime during the late 14th cen. and did not arrive in Europe till after the crusades to the Middle East.  The first tarot cards originated in either France or Italy.... for more information on tarot cards history see this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot

Now, it may say here that playing cards were introduced to Europeans in Egypt, but the invention is Arabian, not Egyptian.  Plus, the lure of ancient Egypt became great after the French Crusades ran through the country.  They were dazzled by the mysticism of the ancient ruins and mesmerizing glyphs so... they brought the lure of the Orient and the splendors of Pharaoh back with them to Europe.  People became fascinated with the art and culture of the Middle East and Egypt, and it quickly became plastered through European media and culture for the next 300 years.

Again, I will say that I can believe that the 'idea' for tarot may have come from the unknown and mysterious glyphs of ancient Egyptian temples and tombs, but tarot is by no means an ancient Egyptian item.

Plus, many of the temples in the state they are today were in ruin 500 years ago.... for example, here is a picture of Karnak from just 100 or so years ago....

  [img:left]http://www.visiongallery.com/images/VINTAGE/anonymous/Anonymous,%20Temple%20of%20Amon,%20Karnak.JPG[/img]  

See how much we repaired it, that even includes the glyphs on the walls. Oh... here is a photo I found of Philae from the 1920's... So I would guess it looked even more worse for ware back in the 1400's when the French first explored it.

  [img:left]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ut2djuT8OYk/SvbX4SIBX4I/AAAAAAAABj4/-4BxKzHMUp0/s640/16.jpg[/img]  

  [img:left]http://www.lifeintheholyland.com/images/matsonsr/Philae,_first_pylon_of_Temple_of_Isis,_mat01580sr.jpg[/img]  

Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
(No-one is born a sage) - IOPH

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2010, 06:06:08 am »
Everybody needs to calm down a bit...this argue reminds me on my first days on this forum, when I asked some people from here to prove me with same kind of arguments about building of pyramids you are now asking Alman…in the end, they didn't prove to me anything, they just proved they are rude and non scientific…

..but, as a historian and practitioner of Tarot for over 20 years, I will try to be short and clear…Tarot pictures are universal psychic pictures, whose origin is not quite known…there are several theories, and the most probable is that they originated in medieval Italy in late 14th or early 15th century among certain groups of Christian mystics…so, as UNIVERSAL pictures, can we find some Egyptian influence in them? OF COURSE!!! Can we find Vedic influence? OF COURSE!!! We can even find influence of native American religions, and everybody would agree that origins of Tarot got absolutely nothing to do with native Americans...
...Wands (or rather spears), Cups, Swords and Disks (or rather shields), are all ancient weapons or maybe better, the things that were absolutely useful to anyone in ancient times…Wands  are made of wood, and the wood is most important and easy thing to find to burn a fire…with Cups you can easily pick water…Swords are making distinctive sound when brandished through air…and Disk or shield is simple flat tool easily lowered to the ground…
…cherubs, those figures of man, eagle, bull and lion, are of Assyrian origin…
…just few days ago I heard explanation that tarot is, with no doubt, of Templar origin…the main argument was that the Fool is non devoted person, and Magus is devoted person, so obviously it shows templar way of initiation (????)…why the author of the theory couldn’t think about any other older initiatory systems, he hasn’t explained…

…so mister Alman, I don’t see why you shouldn’t continue in your search, it is very interesting quest to find any connection of Tarot to any ancient mythology or religion...but, as a scientist to a scientist, just the friendly suggestion, examine as much questions as you can, before you present any kind of theory…on the contrary, you can get easily ridiculed by the people who might not have very persuasive arguments, but are noisy, sharp and determined (this has nothing to do with the commentators on this topic)

Ankh em Ma'at!
Isi-senu  
"Two are Ancient"

Sa Wesir her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat, mery Djehuty her Aset-Serqet

Offline Khesretitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2010, 09:20:31 am »
Quote from: Isisenu
Everybody needs to calm down a bit...this argue reminds me on my first days on this forum, when I asked some people from here to prove me with same kind of arguments about building of pyramids you are now asking Alman…in the end, they didn't prove to me anything, they just proved they are rude and non scientific…


To ask for sources and appropriate citations is not rude. It is proper scholarly practice. Were I to submit my graduate level research without such things, my work would not be accepted.

It is also the accepted practice of cultures which have inherited the Greco-Roman rhetorical tradition to expect, among other things, credibility (Ethos) and logical argument supported by fact (Logos) from anyone advancing a point. These are not instances of rudeness. They are elements of debate which cannot be ignored.

Debate need not be happy and fluffy. By its definition, debate is contention between disputing factions, and it can be quite vigorously conducted. As the ultimate goal is (ostensibly) truth, it is my opinion that it is healthier that debate be done in the latter manner. If a point cannot stand up to the exchange of ideas, let it fall. Thus we will discover what is true and what is not.
Khesretitui
"My Fathers Dispel Evil"

Sat Set her Ra-Heruakhety
Meryt Heru-wer her Yinepu-Wepwawet

I provide writing, editing, and tutoring services in exchange for donations to the House. PM me for details.

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2010, 09:48:10 am »
Well spoke Khesretitui, I agree wholeheartedly.
Timu

Sat Aset, meryt Wepwawet her Renenutet


Offline Maretemheqat

  • Rev Shauna - Ordained Clergy
  • Country: ca
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2010, 10:46:37 am »
Just a friendly reminder folks that you shouldn't be posting images on the forums. Not everyone has high speed internet, and truthfully, images often displace text and make it difficult to read.

That being said, links to images are fine. :)

~Maret
Rev. Mesetibes
Sat Heqat, meryt Djehuti her Ptah her Heru-wer
Fedw Diviner
2011 Wep Ronpet Frog Princess/
W'abet Nekhen Sha'a Sha'at Imef

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2010, 12:19:04 pm »
My apologies Maretemheqat.  I was not aware that posting images was not recommended and would cause issues with performance since everything is fine on my end? Anyway, I will be sure to post links in the future instead.

And yes, very well stated Khesretitui.  I also agree with you.  "If a point cannot stand up to the exchange of ideas, let it fall. Thus we will discover what is true and what is not."-Khesretitui. This seems to me to be happening here...

Alman: all we are asking is for the sources that inspired this spark of discovery within you to develop your theory.  

 
Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
(No-one is born a sage) - IOPH

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2010, 01:23:26 pm »
Hello All, you offer many difficult and complex questions.
My first essay was to show that caps 144-150 of the BoD ( Budge is best) comprised the material from which the Tarot was built ( with
 the Philae carvings) I have given all my sources in this and will rehearse again  the deductive process.
My second point touched on but not gone through was how this could be? chaps 144-150 is not the only Egyptian rites to find there way through to Europe but this is another matter.
Non of you have challenged any of the deductions made so far.
Uniquely the Egyptians left a huge record of all their doings which is why we can practice it today.   If you have ever read Graves White Goddess you can see how The Mediterranean found its way into the UK. Meaning we are not isolated in the way  the average modern person feels.
To reabilitate spiritual life in the modern world we need to understand how the violence and madness of medieval Christianity brought spiritual life to a halt. As we now restore our teachings,insight comes was we go back towards the source.
Advanced knowledge  high learning and realisation is being rebuilt  but it will hurt a bit - to realise why the pope did not come to the UK carrying a Tarot in his hand saying ' get one of these it has a picture of me in it '.

I am not phased by all the to-ing and fro-ing and will post and how I think  the  Tarot creator arrived at the images.
ps the Devil Card always seems to get em going.
So 2 postings to come
1/ Rehearsal
2/ How the Tarot could have been created.

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2010, 01:30:24 pm »
 Egyptian Tarot argued
Here is some argument with little repost so more coherent.
Signing up is free if you need to do so and only takes a few seconds

Offline ubenetsenu

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2010, 03:23:00 pm »
so, wait. you're not going to answer any of our questions where we asked them - i have to sign up on another board?

Quote from: Alman
violence and madness of medieval Christianity brought spiritual life to a halt.


medieval christianity brought spiritual life to a HALT? wow. i guess that degree i got in medieval religion is worthless, then?
ubenetsenu - "two appear shining"
sat Sekhmet-Mut her Khonsu
meryt Wesir her Serqet-Aset
𓁴𓁳
tarot and heka by request

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2010, 08:30:01 pm »
Quote from: Alman
Non of you have challenged any of the deductions made so far.


Actually, we have, you're just avoiding actually taking up those challenges ;)  We asked you multiple times for you to give actual citations, and all you've given us was "Budge and Faulkner said it" and a heavily contested book on Goddess worship.  Do you have any other actual sources besides your personal opinions?

How do you know that you aren't just seeing things that don't exist because you want them to be true?

You imply that we're somehow in love with the idea that the Tarot was likely invented in a Christian context.  The cards contain classic Christian symbolism which you are trying to trace to ancient Egyptian symbolism.  We aren't telling you this as if it benefits us.  It doesn't!  I'm not a Christian.  I am Kemetic.  It would be absolutely awesome to me if the Tarot were invented in ancient Egypt.  But I see absolutely no evidence that it was.  Your evidence is entirely subjective.  One can easily point to Bible stories which are far more similar to the Tarot than your examples.  Why are you ignoring the obvious in favor of the path of most resistance?
Son of Set and Wepwawet-Yinepu.
Beloved of Sekhmet-Hethert, Heru-Wer, and Aset-Serqet.

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2010, 09:23:38 pm »
M Htp! Alman:

I'm somewhat perplexed as to why you would quote Robert Greaves' "The White Goddess" when it has been largely debunked by most scholars, archaeologists and the Celtic Pagan community as a work or pure fiction and not scholarly nor historical in any way shape or form.
  The White Goddess

I'm also curious as to why you would quote Budge when there are better translations of all things Egyptian out there and Wallis' works have come under fire for blatant theft of his students work (claiming them as his own) and that many of his theories and conclusions have since been overthrown.
So you're quoting outdated and debunked material to back up your claims....  The scientific method demands that we simply look at the evidence and see where it leads us. Forming a hypothesis and then looking for evidence that supports it belongs more to someone with an agenda than a true scholar. Many people have been wrongly accused of crimes or their works debunked for using the method of looking for evidence to support a claim, rather than letting the evidence speak for itself.

Senebty,
"Do not be arrogant because of your knowledge, but confer with the ignorant man as with the learned. For knowledge has no limits, and none has yet achieved perfection in it." - The Maxims of Pthahotep

Son of Hethert-Mut/Heru-Wer Beloved of Yinepu, Set and Djehuty

 


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