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Author Topic: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt  (Read 80942 times)

Offline NiankhSekhmet

  • Shemsu-Ankh
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2010, 06:34:43 pm »
I wonder how the relocation of the Temple of Aset at Philae by UNESCO as a result of the Aswan High Dam project might have effected how those things would have lined up in antiquity.

I would be quite interested to know if there any underwater archaeology crews working on this or was the Temple lined up exactly as it had been at its original location.  Kai Imakhu Sedjemes, do you have anything that might give us some clues?

NiankhSekhmet
Sat Sekhmet-Mut/HetHert
Meryt-Amun (Beloved of Amun)
Heri Seshta Sekhmet-Mut / HetHert

Offline Sedjemes

  • Semer-Wati
  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2010, 07:14:33 pm »
Hotep

There are two maps of Philae, one pre-dam (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/philae.htm) and one post-dam (http://www.touregypt.net/Map20.htm) that indicates they lined the structures up block by block (just like at Abu Simbel btw) to make the new Philae as accurate as possible. The new island is higher above the water, but they tried to reproduce the topography otherwise as closely as possible.

What worries me (and I have to reserach this more closely) is if any of the individual blocks were damaged in transit. Late Egyptian, i.e. Ptolemaic glyphs, were sometimes weird to begin with, or different at least. I need to get Porter and Moss's volume, which lists all the glyphs, and sit down to compare it with Vassilikika's Ptolemaic Philae.
Khenmetaset ("Aset Gladdens")
Sedjemes ("She listens")
Daughter of Aset-Serqet, Meryt Ra her Sekhmet
Heri-Sesheta Aset-Serqet

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2010, 01:00:59 pm »
em hotep!

I've been following this thread silently until now, but with some interest and I've been doing some research.

Alman, I believe I found the spot of the photo you posted, the one of the cobras in Philae temple, but I'm not sure.
Was it the chamber called "vestibule" on the plan given on  this site (scroll down)?
And on the left side of the door if you look in the direction of the inner sanctum?

Because if it is, then a publication can be found here:
Bénédite, Georges A., Le Temple de Philae(MMAF 13), Paris 1895
Bénédite numbers the vestibule as "Chambre V" and the depiction can be found on the "Mur Nord", the northern wall
The publication shows seven cobras in a vertical line on the left, with no text. And above them seven cows and one bull, those have their names written in hieroglyphs beside them. I didn’t look up the translations yet, but to me it looks like the seven cows and their bull from Spell 148 (was it that one?)
The corresponding  column on the right side is given as mostly destroyed in the publication, only the upper corner is visible, there are more cows depicted.
If you assume another column of cobras you do indeed get 14 altogether, but there’s space for 14 cows+ 2 bulls, which somewhat skews the count.
And I haven’t yet found any falcons or lions, nor any inscriptions of  '14 Cobras greatly feared', '14 Bulls great roarer',  ’14 Lions lord of the Spear ‘ and  ‘14 Hawks Lord of the knife’.
(I didn’t have the time to study every detail, but neither falcons and lions nor inscriptions are to be found in obvious places. The Cows have individual names and the cobras no inscription at all.)

I’ll try and get some copies and scans of the material as soon as I have some free time on my hands (which, unfortunately, could take some time)


Senebty

Ma’en
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2010, 05:31:23 pm »
  Brillaint Maen and a virtual clincher. Because it links as you say directly to the Bull and Seven Kine in this chapter of the Book of the Dead i.e 144-150 of which this is 148. With the 4 suits there as well the meaning of the  '4 little snakes ' is guaranteed. this is now 100%.

       The cobra freeze goes up to the top and across  above the  entrance and they do number 14 because I counted them.

       To the right of the  entrance to the inner shrine is a similar freeze of 14 bulls - my picture came out blurred. I could not find the hawks and lions but the guide said they were there.
       Is this the same vestibule? I did not see the bull and seven kine.  The titles of the bulls lions etc were lifted from an English? archeologist of the same  period ie up to 1930.
       This is how I knew they were there but it took so long to get to Philae ( 30 years) that I lost my references to the actual book.
         I will sort my pictures again and try to see what is there. Then to Philae again inside 2 years I hope.
     
Many thanks and more to come I am sure
     
Awesome
         
     

Offline Sedjemes

  • Semer-Wati
  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2010, 06:22:25 pm »
Hotep Maen

Vassilika's book _Ptolemaic Philae_ would be an interesting (and more recent) listing of many of the reliefs in the Philae Temple.

Can you tell from your reference if the images are the usual right-and-left side? E.G. on each side of a doorway or on facing walls would be like mirror images of inscriptions. So an offering or procession scene may appear on two facing walls, same scene just repeated (also possibly making x number of images appear to be twice as many images when in fact they are just x repeated. If that makes sense.

Senebty
Sedjemes

Khenmetaset ("Aset Gladdens")
Sedjemes ("She listens")
Daughter of Aset-Serqet, Meryt Ra her Sekhmet
Heri-Sesheta Aset-Serqet

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2010, 11:59:33 pm »
Quote from: Alman
 Brillaint Maen and a virtual clincher. Because it links as you say directly to the Bull and Seven Kine in this chapter of the Book of the Dead i.e 144-150 of which this is 148. With the 4 suits there as well the meaning of the  '4 little snakes ' is guaranteed. this is now 100%.

I'm sorry, Alman, but I'm not seeing 100% of anything here. A mere 10% because all I found is half of what you consider the first suit, and without the inscription.

Quote
The cobra freeze goes up to the top and across  above the  entrance and they do number 14 because I counted them.

Are we then really taling about the same thing? because in Benedite's publication there are only seven cobras on the lower part of the wall, nothing above, and the supposed right side which would bring the number up to 14 is completely destroyed.
Quote
Is this the same vestibule? I did not see the bull and seven kine.  The titles of the bulls lions etc were lifted from an English? archeologist of the same  period ie up to 1930.

The Bull and the cows are higher up on the wall and might be quite difficult to see in the real temple. It would be invaluable to have a more precise reference for the titles, but I might stumble over it yet.

senebty

Ma'en


       
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2010, 12:08:08 am »
em hotep Kai-imakhu

Quote from: Sedjemes
Vassilika's book _Ptolemaic Philae_ would be an interesting (and more recent) listing of many of the reliefs in the Philae Temple.

Thann you for the tip! I saw a reference to that book but I wasn't aware that it is a publication with all the reliefs. I'll look it up.

Quote
Can you tell from your reference if the images are the usual right-and-left side?

Thats precisely what it is. As I just mentioned, I only found 7 cobras, used like a kind of outer border, on the lower left side, for the decoration of the northern wall, which has a doorway in the center. The right side is destroyed, so the other 7 cobras are mere speculation at this point but seem plausible as a mirror image.


senebty

Ma'en
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Offline Rev. Neferuhethert

  • Semer-Wati
  • W'ab (priest)
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2010, 03:48:58 pm »
If you are looking for references in Philae, here are some resources:

An online edition of Bénédite's Le temple de Philae:

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5110808

I have Vassilika's book on Philae, and whereas it is a very good art historical study of the iconography and decoration techniques of the temple, it does not have reproductions of the reliefs. There are three other books with line drawings or photos of reliefs, texts, and translations of various parts of the temple complex:

Junker, Hermann, Der grosse Pylon des Tempels der Isis in Philä, Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften, Wien, 1958.

Junker, Hermann, and Erich Winter, Das Geburtshaus des Tempels der Isis in Philä, Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften, Wien, 1965.

Zabkar, Louis V., Hymns to Isis in Her Temple at Philae, Hanover and London, 1988.

Unfortunately, Philae has not yet been completely published. I've heard that Erich Winter, who has the photos, is working with a grad student to put something together. I hope that the rumor is true!

Hope this helps a bit!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by NeferuHethert »
Rev. NeferuHethert
Sat Hethert/Sekhmet, meryt Ra her Djehuty her Yinepu/Wepwawet
Heryt seshta and Mut-netjer Hethert

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2010, 09:59:02 am »
em hotep

wow, an online edition, way cool. p. 175/Plate XI, that's the one I was talking about.
The corresponding hieroglyphs are on 42: page 30 and 43: page 31

senebty

Ma'en
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 10:08:46 am by Maen »
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #84 on: October 04, 2010, 05:47:36 am »
Wow, well I just sat here and read all nine pages of this thread!

I am by no means a scholar, and will not pretend to be one.  I think sometimes we find an idea so exciting that we start "seeing things" that aren't really there.

We have to be very careful when it comes to presenting things as FACTS rather than BELIEFS.  We must take care that we aren't simply seeing what we want to see instead of seeing what is really there.
Daughter of Ptah and Bast
Beloved of Nebthet-Nit-Seshat and Heru-wer

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2010, 06:09:17 am »
Maen  - Yes this room is marked vestibule on the site. it has a small room coming off immediately on the entrance to it. i.e. from where the photo was taken   Diag. Philae scroll down   The 14 serpents are in a single straight line from floor to ceiling with maybe 3 along the top. The bulls on the other side start well above the floor. The first three are not neatly vandalised at the bottom ( probably because of sand raising the floor?)  The figures are labelled as a block somewhere ie  no markings on the identical figures. I have photographed the entire room but the quality is very varied. If you have a copy of the 1895 diagram can you post it. This will certainly settle where to look for things. The opposite wall is a mess though the right and left walls are in good condition.
     The 14  pillars of Trajan would assume significance if the priests originally wanted 4 such in each direction.  But sponsors clearly were very eratic on this site ( like today).

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2010, 07:53:48 am »
Hello to you all and Maen -
        I would like to thank you for that on line plate.  First up is what I assume is false memories and my frustratingly poor pictures.
       Clearly I am wrong about the location of the cobra frieze i.e They are and were when I was there on the right side of the door as well as the left. But not completely destroyed otherwise I could not have counted them. The drawing of Benedictine is quite frustratingly awful as well.
       However now we are into the details. Apart from the the lions and hawks we need the labels attached all 4 animals. The No 14  maybe easy to spot.
Thanks for all the work being done. I will enhance my pictures. At the moment the bulls seem to be bulls not kine.
     There appear to be 30 spaces available to fit in 14 cobras and bulls.

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #87 on: October 04, 2010, 02:52:24 pm »
em hotep Alman,

your memory must not neccessarily be false, things might well look different in the temple today from what Benedite found in 1895 - restorations may have been made since then, some blocks reconstructed or something.
I'll be in Egypt again in February, I'll see if I can't fit Philae into my schedule and look it up in person...
Still, we're lacking positive evidence.


But concerning your Minor Arkana you might be interested in this article:
Robinson, Peter, Book of the Dead chapters 149 and 150 and their Coffin Text origins, in: Griffin, K.(ed.): Current Research in Egyptology 8, Oxford 2008.

Robinson basically shows that most of the fourteen "mounds" have older roots in the coffin texts, but there they don't all appear together, and they don't have their accomanying vignettes. The author assumes that the fourteen mounds were assembled into a BoD-spell sometime in the 18th dynasty, and the vignettes were either added from an unknown source or invented. He also discusses whether the "mounds" are in some way connected to real places in Egypt, but if I remember correctly he comes to the conclusion that they aren't.

And I'm still not seeing a Tarot-connection here. Aren't the minor Arkana divided into a sequence of Ace to Ten and four Court Cards? I'm not seeing a similar structure in the BoD-spell, apart from the total number. (And fourteen is indeed an important number in Egyptian mythology, since Wesir's body was cut into fourteen pieces.)


senebty

Ma'en
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #88 on: October 09, 2010, 01:57:10 pm »
Maen if you look at page 42/30 of your site you can  see that the Bulls on the left are actually not Bull drawings. The Hieroglypths make it clear that these are as  previously stated 7 kine and one bull - making eight on the top left. This is at least some progress. I have  seen that Per Linder has a book in Swedish? but it is in his language - which we may nit need if hw has  the writings and pictures

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #89 on: October 13, 2010, 03:12:15 pm »
Hello Maen - I do hope you get to Egypt and see the Philae Temple again -remember how difficult it is to take photos with a bog standard digital camera in a dark place -you have to pre-set the manual focus usually as the focus assist light will not work in near darkness. Usually the bar in manual focus is not calibrated.
   I will look at your references -I have the Coffin and pyramid texts. The Egyptians like many ancient teachings had  many corresponding references eg 21 pillars are 21 parts of the body (one each god) and the 21 parts of the boat of Ra. 7 gates and seven kine. 14 places where the body of Osiris was flung helps with mounds, islands regions etc. Altogether a symbolic and spiritual reality not an actual one.
      The 14 tarot trumps had it is said Pagan gods originally for the court cards. I feel that the unknown Tarot author  merely imitated the packs of the day and baulked at the trying to give value to each card even though he had a text. However we do not have the original deck or the name of its creator. But I do feel  that Waite/Smith were looking in the right direction when they restored a  pictoral value for each card. i.e intuitively they felt there was something missing.
 I have been through my pictures and they are simplty not good enough. I have the South wall but can't see the strips to the left and right. They are left blank by Benedict.
The Per  Linder book is about Inscriptions in Philae Temple, perhaps complete. There is a copy in the British Library.
The British Library is available on line

 


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