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Author Topic: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt  (Read 80946 times)

Offline Khesretitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2010, 08:11:14 am »
Quote
the other side says things like: "...low-context cultures presume heterogeneity among members of their society, and, as a result, such individuals require detailed contextual information in each discussion..." which quite honestly might as well be written hieroglyphs as far as I am concerned.


While I can see where the terminology could at first be off-putting, there exist means for finding out its meaning. Within the context of what I said I provided a working definition of a low-context culture -- one where members cannot assume to share knowledge with each other. Heterogeneity means difference in type, just as homogeneity means sameness in type.

So what you have here is that people from a low-context culture assume that everybody is different (or has a different experience) and therefore those people have to have background information explicitly stated in order to follow one another's argument. They assume you have to do this each time, since each discussion may involve other people who don't know the background information.

This is in contrast to a high-context culture such as, say, China or Japan, where everybody is expected to know certain things and, as such, nobody ever has to prove those things. If everyone is expected to know Confucius, everybody will know where a quote from him has come from, so in that setting it would not be necessary to cite him. However, in English discourse, we assume the audience may not know, so we need to cite.

That's all that means. If you're interested in further information, you might look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_context_culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_context_culture


It's Wikipedia, which tends to be unreliable, but the information here is rooted in good external sources.
Khesretitui
"My Fathers Dispel Evil"

Sat Set her Ra-Heruakhety
Meryt Heru-wer her Yinepu-Wepwawet

Offline Aashemmuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2010, 08:21:37 am »
Wow, what a new concept for me. I would consider our culture to be somewhere in the middle of the two poles described, actually. If you'll notice, there are actually certain things in our culture - at least in United States culture, to which my experience is limited - that people are presumed to have knowledge of. Sometimes the assumption is incorrect, but the assumptions are still made.

One glaring example I can think of is that movie "The Matrix". I see so many metaphysical and theological arguments based on comparisons to that movie, metaphors in the movie, and so forth. It is presumed, generally, in our culture that all people are familiar with that movie. Hence near-constant references to "red pills" and "blue pills" and whatnot.
Sat Sekhmet-Hethert her Bast, Meryt Shu her Sokar-Wesir.

Offline Aashemmuti

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  • Country: 00
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2010, 08:22:35 am »
Thank you for the background info, by the way. That is extremely interesting and I do greatly appreciate your taking the time to explain these concepts.
Sat Sekhmet-Hethert her Bast, Meryt Shu her Sokar-Wesir.

Offline Khesretitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2010, 08:50:09 am »
Quote from: Aashemmuti
Wow, what a new concept for me. I would consider our culture to be somewhere in the middle of the two poles described, actually. If you'll notice, there are actually certain things in our culture - at least in United States culture, to which my experience is limited - that people are presumed to have knowledge of. Sometimes the assumption is incorrect, but the assumptions are still made.

One glaring example I can think of is that movie "The Matrix". I see so many metaphysical and theological arguments based on comparisons to that movie, metaphors in the movie, and so forth. It is presumed, generally, in our culture that all people are familiar with that movie. Hence near-constant references to "red pills" and "blue pills" and whatnot.


The Matrix material is a great example. Inside jokes, "geek" culture, and other instances like that are also high-context type elements that we have. Two Trekkies don't need to explain themselves to one another, but if one Trekkie isn't sure someone else is also a Trekkie, s/he has to be very detailed in explaining what the Organian Treaty is, for instance.

Additionally, sometimes researchers forget that not everybody is doing the same research, and we forget to explain ourselves completely as a result. ;)

Another good example is the difference between myself and my husband, culturally speaking. He's from another state, and I'm from Texas. When we first got together, we had a dispute over how chili should be made. It just "is" made a certain way in the part of Texas where I grew up, but not so where he's from. I assumed he knew "my" chili, and he assumed I knew "his."
Khesretitui
"My Fathers Dispel Evil"

Sat Set her Ra-Heruakhety
Meryt Heru-wer her Yinepu-Wepwawet

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2010, 08:57:51 am »
Quote from: Setkheni_itw


 You could believe that the Tarot was literally scraped off of Egyptian mummies and then photocopied on a Xerox machine in medieval Japan by Santa Claus and Jesus and still be able to read the cards.  


LMAO! Haaaaahaaaahaaa! Thanks for the laugh of the day Setkheni!
>  D
Timu

Sat Aset, meryt Wepwawet her Renenutet


Offline Aashemmuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2010, 09:00:31 am »
Quote from: Khesretitui


The Matrix material is a great example. Inside jokes, "geek" culture, and other instances like that are also high-context type elements that we have. Two Trekkies don't need to explain themselves to one another, but if one Trekkie isn't sure someone else is also a Trekkie, s/he has to be very detailed in explaining what the Organian Treaty is, for instance.


One example from my own life is blues culture, meaning the culture and poetry of blues music. A lot of my friends are people also into this music, and if one of us refers to a certain artist or lyric, it is instantly understood along with a bevy of underlying connotations. Sometimes when talking to others, I have to remind myself that such references are useless, as the backstory would take so long to explain that the listener would be at risk of getting lost in a sea of unfamiliar information.

I personally wish that people would lay off the Matrix references. It is really overdone. I refuse to watch this movie because I am tired of hearing about it, and feel that there are many other fictional metaphors and allegories for life that we  can use as common reference... such as LORD OF THE RINGS, lol!
Sat Sekhmet-Hethert her Bast, Meryt Shu her Sokar-Wesir.

Offline Aashemmuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2010, 09:01:22 am »
Quote from: Ta_Imu_Aset
Quote from: Setkheni_itw


 You could believe that the Tarot was literally scraped off of Egyptian mummies and then photocopied on a Xerox machine in medieval Japan by Santa Claus and Jesus and still be able to read the cards.  


LMAO! Haaaaahaaaahaaa! Thanks for the laugh of the day Setkheni!
>  D


This is indeed great! I love it.
Sat Sekhmet-Hethert her Bast, Meryt Shu her Sokar-Wesir.

Offline Khesretitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2010, 10:11:33 am »
Quote
. . . if one of us refers to a certain artist or lyric, it is instantly understood along with a bevy of underlying connotations. Sometimes when talking to others, I have to remind myself that such references are useless, as the backstory would take so long to explain that the listener would be at risk of getting lost in a sea of unfamiliar information.


That's absolutely exactly the point. :)

It's because of this reality, which is a part of everything we do in our relatively low-context society, that we have to cite our sources. While there are small pockets of people who will instantly "get it," not everyone will, so we need to make sure they can follow our logic and make the same discovery and connections we did, as Kai Imakhu suggested above.

Citations can be a variety of things. They can be the formal ones such as I demonstrated, which use a bibliography and the like. They can be informal, where you say, "I got [idea] from [place] and [other idea] from [other place] and therefore came up with [synthesized third idea]." They can also simply be an admission that whatever you're mentioning is personal experience.

We do a lot of that third one here when we discuss UPG (unsubstantiated personal gnosis). It doesn't take away from our experience that something is a personal happening, but it's important to distinguish UPG from, say, a quote from the Coffin Texts or a theory formally advanced by scholar. By showing where such things come from, we allow others to understand how to relate to them and join the conversation. Until we do that, it's like telling an inside joke to someone who wouldn't otherwise get it.

Khesretitui
"My Fathers Dispel Evil"

Sat Set her Ra-Heruakhety
Meryt Heru-wer her Yinepu-Wepwawet

Offline ubenet

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Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2010, 11:15:11 am »
Quote from: Isisenu
It is always interesting to me how academic people tend to push themselves above others. This fact is kind of sad to me, because I am also like to view myself as scholar and scientist, but I always thought that I can learn something from anybody, even from the beggar living on the street. Today you don’t need academy to know something, information is free and available, and all this citations are needed only in the circles of academics, this is forum, I am not going to quote on that what I’ve just written. Do I really need to quote the source for what I wrote about the history of Tarot? Or about the origins of cherubims?


of course everybody has something to teach, no matter what their background is, but they learned it somehow.  i can teach you things about medicine that i learned from a book, from experience, from wikipedia, or from someone else telling me - and if you ask me how i know that thing, i can tell you.  that's all citations are:  telling you how i know a thing.
ubenetsenu - "two appear shining"
sat Sekhmet-Mut her Khonsu
meryt Wesir her Serqet-Aset

tarot and heka by request

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2010, 01:46:23 pm »
Hello Everybody Only one point seems at the moment to be wished for, and that is -Where are Budges and  Falkoners  citations for the 4 snakes and cardinal points - answer - They are in the picture posted which is just a bit difficult to read It says "Vignette: four serpents, emblematic probably of the cardinal points and fifteen Aats "
    Some people have pointed me to various web sites about the origin of the Tarot  ( in medieval europe), so I took a look and was astonished.  There isn't any! Not a sausage zilch, zero.  The earliest batter trumps only is about 1500 AD and the next 1700 on, Tarot of Marseilles where the meaning of the minor arcana is removed ( restored nicely by Waite/Rider. Essentially these histories are the  history of playing cards in the 14 cent called Trionfs tarochi  tarot and other names.
      What this does however is strengthen our case by showing why the unknown creator would choose to create a ' Tarot '  card deck armed with the material from the chapters of the Bod described. It would seem likely the easy option with many of his fashionable friends having decks of cards.
     So fist piece - Our intrepid adventure arrives in North Africa where which with militant Islam spreading everywhere around the Christian world including Spain, Balkans and taking the remnants of once great Constantinople is an adventure.
    ' Psst - man -ancient secret sacred  text.'  According to a 19/20th cent occultist ' The tarot was created at a conference in North Africa to discuss all knowledge. I have read so many books that  I cannot recall who but it would be in the introduction. The remark seemed fatuous at the time but I knew nothing of Islam scholarship then. Let us say, over a cup  of jasmin or hibiscus the seller explains " its the snakes you know. They mean the four direction and there were originally 4 animals to match the 14 shapes." ' How do you know " "The great scholars met and everything was shown to be so at the great conference of xxxx. The paper was properly presented I assure you. It  is from Ancient Egypt and is very, very very old"
    He  gets his hand copy and other texts as part of a job lot and  proceeds though  to Egypt and sees many wonders.
    The Pharoah smiting enemies from a chariot - 7 Charioteer
    Kings and Queens and Gods and Goddesses on thrones 2-5
    He learns about Sothis the morning star which heralds the inundation which quickly he sees as Aphrodite a classic No17
    We have already discussed the devil, stength and the World where he cannot make sense of the task because the 7 gates text is missing. so he puts in the 4 animals.
   Most of the text is a pig to interpret but he can make a fair fist of some of them eg also the lightening tower and temperance. Where the hanged man fits in I would not know -the sacrificed animal is it many Egyptian pictures but to turn it into a man like this is a bit bizarre.
   Anyway back at home he does all this, making the trumps 1 + 4 + 16 without the gates. He adds images fitting in eratically with his surroundings and audience expectations and invents four new suits rather than run with the animals which he rates as doubtful ( they were), not having seen the real suits in Philae. The sun and moon fit well from the 21 trumps as do death and the hermit so he isn't doing badly. Let us sympathy the text does baffle all my 21th cent readers.
    I was rather hoping somenone would tell who mentioned the ' Conference of all knowledge '
     Anyway that is for now.  Last night I was at a regular interfaith meeting with a Sikh, a good Muslim scholar, a regular Christian, an Athiest/agnostic, Quaker myself as Buddhist and Pagan and a non-characterisable pagan. We talked well. Let all views be freely heard.
now for cut a paste and a few quick comments
     
         
   

Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2010, 01:59:08 pm »
   One little answer -someone says earlier that univeral symbols can be seen everywhere. this looks like reductio -ad -absurbum to me. It will not work here because every picture can be seen as part of a universal image. My contention is that these images are very distinctive in their original and the result though heavily parsed still looks like its originations. The translation appear  essentially as  buy ins so include a very weird selection of imagery from all over the place. This itself is a further hint  and gives further consistency, that the author is working from another text. Every little helps indeed  
Q Are the Minor Arcana there. A. Yes
Q Are there 14 - A. Yes Q so Are they Numbered - A Indeed in Egyptian fully.
Q But you need 4 x 14 A. The Egyptians indicated this by 4 little snakes.
Q Is this your idea A. No most Egyptologists agree that these snakes mean the 4 directions without any idea of the possible significance
Q But thee are no suits in the BoD?! A True but we have found them in the vestibule of the temple of Isis
Q Are there 14 A Yes Q Are they identical A yes Are they numbered? No but they are labelled as being 14 in number. 14 cobras Greatly feared 14 Bulls great roarer, 14 Hawks lord of the knife 14 Lions lord of the spear.
Q But to prove your contention you must also show that the Major Arcana are also part of this teaching called Entering the house of Osiris. Can you do this A Yes this is true in chaps 145-146


Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2010, 05:42:17 pm »
Um?

I still don't understand where you are coming from with this information.  Just because you put some sentences inside quotation marks does not automatically make it a real and creditable quote.  Also, how are you justified all these random questions and answers you are posting here? This information you are presenting is beginning to make me arrive at the assumption that you truly do not hold any creditable information on this matter.  What you are sighting as the 'Major Arcana' from chapter 145 of the Book of the Dead are actually the guardians of the gates ones soul must pass through the enter into the duat.  This link below will show you an image of all 'ten' guardians.... there is not 14 as you have mentioned.

http://i51.tinypic.com/2zhozll.png

Is it because the guardians look like they are 'card' shaped that you arrived at the conclusion that they are tarot cards?    










Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
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Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2010, 12:24:02 am »
Quote from: Alman
Where are Budges and  Falkoners  citations for the 4 snakes and cardinal points - answer - They are in the picture posted which is just a bit difficult to read It says "Vignette: four serpents, emblematic probably of the cardinal points and fifteen Aats "

Okay, I see it now.  I still don't understand where he would get that idea.

It is also my understanding that Budge is extremely outdated.  Personally, I don't think I've seen many mentions of Budge that didn't mention that.

Quote from: Alman
What this does however is strengthen our case by showing why the unknown creator would choose to create a ' Tarot '  card deck armed with the material from the chapters of the Bod described. It would seem likely the easy option with many of his fashionable friends having decks of cards.

You're coming to a conclusion here based on your own preconceived notion, though, so it doesn't strengthen anything.  You can't just fill in a gaping hole with personal speculation.  I mean, you can go ahead and speculate all you want as to what might have happened, but it doesn't help your case where actual history and evidence are involved.  Not today, anyway.

Quote from: Alman
According to a 19/20th cent occultist ' The tarot was created at a conference in North Africa to discuss all knowledge. I have read so many books that  I cannot recall who but it would be in the introduction.  The remark seemed fatuous at the time but I knew nothing of Islam scholarship then. Let us say, over a cup  of jasmin or hibiscus the seller explains " its the snakes you know. They mean the four direction and there were originally 4 animals to match the 14 shapes." ' How do you know " "The great scholars met and everything was shown to be so at the great conference of xxxx. The paper was properly presented I assure you. It  is from Ancient Egypt and is very, very very old" ...and so on

Occultists are not automatically historians and I think they're rather prone to pseudohistory.

This story in particular strikes me as very pseudohistorical.  I don't know where you got it from, is this your personal narrative based on what you think happened, or did you get the whole thing elsewhere?  Because if you're going to write a paper and present this as a scholarly work, I would personally suggest you work more on getting good citations and less on turning it into a story.  Speculative stories are great for entertainment, but not always for history, not the way we perceive it today.

Quote from: Alman
I was rather hoping somenone would tell who mentioned the ' Conference of all knowledge '

A Google search of related terms shows nothing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Setkheni_itw »
Son of Set and Wepwawet-Yinepu.
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Offline AabatDjehuty

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2010, 06:29:45 am »
 
Quote
I still don't understand where you are coming from with this information. Just because you put some sentences inside quotation marks does not automatically make it a real and creditable quote. Also, how are you justified all these random questions and answers you are posting here? This information you are presenting is beginning to make me arrive at the assumption that you truly do not hold any creditable information on this matter.


I agree with you on this. I am still waiting for the citations mentioned earlier. So since Alman can or will not cite anything other than assumptions, the subject is closed for me.

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Offline NiankhSekhmet

  • Shemsu-Ankh
Re: Tarot origins in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2010, 08:36:04 am »
The problem with most occultic citations is precisely that; many would couch their pet theories, rites and assumptions in the robes of Ancient Egypt when nothing of the kind was even remotely true. Somehow, especially back one, two and three hundred years ago, the older it was, then it was assumed to be more valid in the eyes of those both inside and outside those fraternities as if it could basically be assumed that the information being presented was above reproach.  I won't name names, but let us say that our current occult and new age landscape is rife with the same sort of mindest.  If you say Ancient Egyptian whatever it seems to still be to add legitimacy.

I think, Allman, since you are reticent about giving actual citations (title, author, page number, etc.) and speak in generalities that you yourself might have fallen into that web.  Some of the more well known Theosophits and Hermetic "scholars" were actually quite talented at slight of hand and parlour tricks in addition to being the avatars of the Universal Truths they were presenting.

 If you look at the Magician card and you get quite an illustration of that idea. Of course, it does mean that As Above, So Below; but it also means that the Magician controls the situation in his sphere and is able to manifest the desired result from those observing him as well.

Let's face it, ancient Egypt is an incredible draw because it is, quite frankly, the Mother of us all.  We have desire to go back to Mama, so to speak, that is in our DNA. The tarot, too, has within it vast sympbolism it speaks to our psyches no matter who we are. It, too, gets overlayed over so much as well.  I have seen the tarot applied to everything from alchemy to herbs, from Arthurian legend to Frank Herbert's Dune. The Tarot does not need ancient Egypt to be a valid system on its own. And Ancient Kemet does not need tarot in order to be mysterious and interesting.  

It's human nature to want to attach things together like beads on a string, to write analogies for one thing that includes another thing, and believe that if you try hard enough, are clever and insightful enough or are stubborn enough, you can make it all fit.  Technically, it is all connected but it might be something that is only valid to you - or it may be what you suspect, but with that there should be evidence of some kind   Personal passion and conviction are wonderful things, but they don't always hold up under scrutiny.

Quote
"The great scholars met and everything was shown to be so at the great conference of xxxx. The paper was properly presented I assure you. It is from Ancient Egypt and is very, very very old" ...and so on
 

Who? What? When? Do you have examples of the information presented from this gathering of scholars?  I find myself asking why you are so hesitant to present more specific information to us that can be checked for veracity and giving us a chance to read it for ourselves? Is it by chance oathbound or proprietary material?  

According to Dion Fortune, authors such as Madam Blavatsky and Alice Bailey didn't so much want people to discover the truth from their books as much as for people reading them to seek them out for further instruction and thereby gain possible sponsorship through patronage by clients who were willing to pay for such information. I am hoping that the lack of more specific citations and information is not because of something like this.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 08:50:29 am by NiankhSekhmet »
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