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Author Topic: Info about Min?  (Read 11351 times)

Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2010, 03:27:49 pm »
Em-Hotep-Rh'ekh,

Here is some more information on this matter of Min-Heru:

From the Pyramid Text: Utterance 246

253c. His messengers go; his runner hastens.
253d. They announce to Him who lifts up his arm in the East
254a. that this One passes in thee of whom is Dwn-‘n.wi who said: "He shall command my fathers; the gods."
254b. The gods are silent before thee; the Ennead lay their hands upon their mouth...

The title 'Him who lifts up his arm in the East' has been associated with being an epithet of Min. The next passage which says: “this One passes in thee of whom is Dwn-'n'wi” has been interpreted as meaning that Min (Lord of the Eastern Desert, who raises his arm in the East – his domain) is linked within the Netjer Dwn-'n'wi who is a form of Heru: the connection between the two Netjer is that known as Min-Heru. In Later times, during the New Kingdom, Min is slowly merged into the House of Amun, and is no longer commonly referred to as Min-Heru, but rather Min-Amun. In this new title, Min rises in prominence and is seen as a 'king' over the other Netjer; sharing the same authority as Amun who he is joined with: “He shall command my Father; the Gods.”

Also, to explain the end of this section of the Pyramid Text, where it says: “The gods are silent before thee; the Ennead lay their hands upon their mouth...”: This is another section of a hymn dedicated to Min: “The Bull who unites with those of the sweet love, of beautiful face and of painted eyes, Victorious sovereign among the Gods who inspires fear in the Ennead.” This passage shows that Min brought fear to the Ennead, and this fact is expressed in passage 254b. The act of placing ones hand upon ones mouth gives one the sense of having fear or shock.
 
Senabty-Rh'ekh :)
Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
(No-one is born a sage) - IOPH

Offline Tanebet

  • Rev Astrid - Ordained Clergy, Semer-Wati
  • Country: 00
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2010, 04:40:37 pm »
Quote from: Devo


Though I'm not sure if I'm understanding the question right (I'm not all here today), there is a section in the Prayerbook that references "Min-Heru" on page 61, for what it's worth. I'm not sure what the source of the Litany is, but it is there.
-Devo


Devo, I have been asking for sources about Imsetra's statement that Min is some kind of twin essense of Heru ansd that this info can be found in some texts. It isn't scientific to make statements about something by just saying that it can be found in some texts. The proper scientific way would be to name ones sources.

Senebty
Tanebet
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Offline Khesretitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2010, 05:13:35 pm »
Em hotep!

I'm curious what version of the Pyramid Texts Imsety is using and where we could all find a copy if we wanted to. I think that might do a great deal to help us all see the perspective being invoked here. :)

Khesretitui
"My Fathers Dispel Evil"

Sat Set her Ra-Heruakhety
Meryt Heru-wer her Yinepu-Wepwawet

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Offline Raheri

  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2010, 07:59:07 pm »
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety
Also, to explain the end of this section of the Pyramid Text, where it says: “The gods are silent before thee; the Ennead lay their hands upon their mouth...”:

Em hotep Imsetra-Imsety,

I thought this passage was referring to the King, not the god, perhaps equating the god with the King. But the pryamid texts are specific to give the power of the gods to the Kings. At least that is my take of it in the historical context. I have a passion for the books of the netherworlds, and do wonder what translation you are using. I found the passage in my Faulkner edition, but still cannot locate in my Allen edition.

Senebty,
Raheri
Son of Wesir | Heri-sesheta

"O my heart which I had from my mother,
Do not rise up agianst me as a witness in the presence of the Lord of Things;
Do not bring up anything agianst me in the presence of the Great God, Lord of the West."

Offline TahekerutAset

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2010, 09:27:16 pm »
Quote from: Tanebet


Devo, I have been asking for sources about Imsetra's statement that Min is some kind of twin essense of Heru ansd that this info can be found in some texts. It isn't scientific to make statements about something by just saying that it can be found in some texts. The proper scientific way would be to name ones sources.

Senebty
Tanebet


I know that Geraldine Pinch's book on Egyptian Mythology has references to Min-Heru and Min as both Aset's consort and Aset's son.  

Barbara Lesko's book The Great Goddesses of Egypt has a passage quoted about Min being the son of Aset and Wesir.  
TahekerutAset "Aset's Jewel"
Sat Aset
Meryt Nebet Het her Wepwawet her Sekhmet-Mut her Ra

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Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2010, 10:18:15 pm »
Quote from: Tanebet
Quote from: Devo


Though I'm not sure if I'm understanding the question right (I'm not all here today), there is a section in the Prayerbook that references "Min-Heru" on page 61, for what it's worth. I'm not sure what the source of the Litany is, but it is there.
-Devo


Devo, I have been asking for sources about Imsetra's statement that Min is some kind of twin essense of Heru ansd that this info can be found in some texts. It isn't scientific to make statements about something by just saying that it can be found in some texts. The proper scientific way would be to name ones sources.

Senebty
Tanebet


I agree about where the information comes from, but I also came across similar information...  So, it's not just Imsetra.

Looking online as I have been...

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/min.html

http://www.egyptiandreams.co.uk/min.php

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Min
( http://www.enotes.com/topic/Min_(god) )

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/min.htm

A lot of repeating information, but each page has a bit of new stuff too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 01:01:28 am by Seta »
"Give sorrow a Sailor smile."
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"Beyond this road, running on far and long, must surely be something we can believe in."
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Offline Tanebet

  • Rev Astrid - Ordained Clergy, Semer-Wati
  • Country: 00
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2010, 02:38:11 am »
Your links, Seta, are a good example for how a text should look like or not. Of all the links you provided only one states specifically its sources. If I can't check the sources an author used I will take whatever statement he/she makes with a grain of salt.
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2010, 03:54:21 am »
Quote from: Tanebet
If I can't check the sources an author used I will take whatever statement he/she makes with a grain of salt.


I can understand where you are coming from in this line of thinking; though... With this type of attitude one might question the validity or trustworthiness in anything. For what were the sources of the original author who wrote the first myths; or who wrote the first incantations? Just a question to ponder in my opinion.
Ne'sip - Thii - Mu - Pah - Ma'at
(Never Wander From The Truth)

Hk'hk - Mu - Th'n - Ib - Gh'ert - Netjer
(Keep Netjer In Your Heart Always)

Nin - Mesin'i - I'usi - Sa'ahu...
(No-one is born a sage) - IOPH

Offline Iaityinepu

  • Shemsu
  • Country: au
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2010, 04:11:52 am »
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety

I can understand where you are coming from in this line of thinking; though... With this type of attitude one might question the validity or trustworthiness in anything. For what were the sources of the original author who wrote the first myths; or who wrote the first incantations? Just a question to ponder in my opinion.


Not only do I take things without sourcing with a grain of salt, I look at the sources to see their validity.  I am more likely to believe the sources/comments of someone who has sufficient scientific evidence or education credentials than someone who has only done their own, self-guided research.
Sat Yinepu-Wepwawet Meryt Satet her Amun-Ra
Iait (with an i, not an L): Adoring

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Offline Tanebet

  • Rev Astrid - Ordained Clergy, Semer-Wati
  • Country: 00
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2010, 05:08:26 am »
Quote from: Imsetra_Imsety

I can understand where you are coming from in this line of thinking; though... With this type of attitude one might question the validity or trustworthiness in anything. For what were the sources of the original author who wrote the first myths; or who wrote the first incantations? Just a question to ponder in my opinion.  


But that's exactly what a historian is supposed to do. He has to look at the sources and make a judgement about the information provided. Is the author trustworthy? Is the author biased? Does the author make a statement which can't be found anywhere else?
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2010, 07:38:16 am »
Thing is, this is a forum of faith and of fact.  There are going to be some things that are from personal contact, and those things that are from historical context.  It's a great thing is someone would be so kind to label such here, but truthfully a lot of knowledge is both scholarly and subjective.
"Give sorrow a Sailor smile."
~ "Makenai" by Hanazawa Kae; Sailor Moon Stars, Season 5, episode 200

"Beyond this road, running on far and long, must surely be something we can believe in."
~ "Pure Heart" by Rikki; Final Fantasy VII, "Aerith's Theme"

Offline Aashemmuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2010, 07:53:32 am »
Quote from: Seta
It's a great thing is someone would be so kind to label such here, but truthfully a lot of knowledge is both scholarly and subjective.


eh? sorry for popping in like this. Have been following somewhat but don't understand how something can be both scholarly and subjective. I value both scholarly info and UPG (what I would consider subjective) but I don't confuse the two or try to present them the same way.
Sat Sekhmet-Hethert her Bast, Meryt Shu her Sokar-Wesir.

Offline Tanebet

  • Rev Astrid - Ordained Clergy, Semer-Wati
  • Country: 00
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2010, 07:55:31 am »
I agree that it is important to make a difference between UPG and historical facts. Some UPG can be backed up by historical facts but there is always UPG which isn't.
The difference between UPG and historical facts is for me that UPG is my personal opinion and experience I don't expect to be shared by anyone else while historical facts should be objective and don't depend on someones opinion.
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Offline Maretemheqat

  • Rev Shauna - Ordained Clergy
  • Country: ca
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2010, 09:41:06 am »
Hotep all,

Tanebet has a really good point on the accuracy of information out there, and it's something that at least all University level people should be aware of.

The main problem with citing webpages? They're not peer-reviewed (Wikipedia is a good example of this, even though it does have citations), they're often backed by advertising (which can be a good indicator of bias) and any joe with an internet connection can post their opinion without peer-review.

The importance of this is PEER REVIEW. In scholarly circles, peer-review is the single most important factor when it comes to publishing anything; from thesis to articles. The point of peer review is to have others in the field read your work to see if they can basically poke holes in your argument, and how well you can defend them. It's not about "being nice", it's about providing the best possible information and understanding of that information.

UPG is entirely different.

Just an FYI for people who might be confused as to why we keep asking for source citations.

Senebty!
~Maret
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 09:41:44 am by Maretemheqat »
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Offline Khesretitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Info about Min?
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2010, 11:00:13 am »
Hotep, all.

I think Maret makes an excellent point and does a great job explaining why folks are asking for sources.

It's perfectly fine to discuss UPG and other kinds of subjective, personal experiences here, but it's important to differentiate them from scholarly sources as she notes.

We do approach this from, as Seta observes, an angle of both faith and fact, but I think it's important to remember to keep facts with facts and faith with faith.

I don't think anyone's trying to squash anyone's personal experiences here, but we do have folks on this forum who are professional scholars. I'm one of them, though Egyptology isn't my field. We live or die by our sources, so it's natural for us to look for them. If we ask you, we're not calling you a liar; we just want to know where it came from so we can look at it, too.

As for UPG and other personal experience, those things have no final authority other than our own lives, so we can discuss them without "formal" sources. As long as UPG is noted as such, this is fine.

There's really a lot of good information coming out in this thread as well as in others. :) I'm interested in seeing where this goes when the data -- as well as the UPG -- is examined.
Khesretitui
"My Fathers Dispel Evil"

Sat Set her Ra-Heruakhety
Meryt Heru-wer her Yinepu-Wepwawet

I provide writing, editing, and tutoring services in exchange for donations to the House. PM me for details.

 


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