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Author Topic: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice  (Read 28019 times)

Offline Khenneferitw

  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2012, 01:44:40 pm »
Em hotep, Sage!

This is my understanding of things. For the most part, shemsu and remetj are separated from each other by geographical chance. While we do have small gatherings and our yearly retreat to spend personal time together, we unfortunately do not get to practice our faith together, aside from simulcast rituals.

Senut is our way of alleviating that. There is a certain magic to repetition, as even skeptics can attest (tell yourself "you are an idiot" enough, and you'll believe it and act as such. Tell yourself "you can do this" enough, and you will succeed. Practice makes perfect or permanent, depending on your school of thought). So it is with Senut, in that each time it is done, the heka grows. With the sheer number of people who have learned Senut (either through piracy, the Prayerbook, or the Beginners' classes), there is potential that anytime you do it, someone else is doing it too. Saying the same words, preforming the same actions. It is as if they are there too, honoring the gods with you. That is one reason we do it as it was written.

I am not a ritualist, nor a magician, nor a theologian. I know that there is a lot more to why Senut is done the way it is, but I can't explain it well. I'll leave those other esoteric reasons for others who are more qualified to answer. I hope I was somewhat helpful!
Khenne | they/them
Child of Ptah-Sokar and Wepwawet
Kemetic Humanism / New England Kemetic Organizing

Offline ubenet

  • Guest
  • Country: us
Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2012, 01:59:07 pm »
Quote from: Sage_of_Yinepu
What about casting a circle prior to Senut, and why not? That's almost like saying that a witch/Wiccan can't say a Christian prayer or give offerings to Mother Mary or something while in circle, or whatnot.

Are you of the belief that doing anything of KO practice other than as taught is no longer considered 'valid' (to you? Or to the KO founder/s)? I'm curious as to your thoughts on this. :) I don't see why separating one's practice would be a 'bad' thing, personally, as a personal religious practice is ultimately meant for the individual, not the whole. If I for example do one of the above examples while in a circle, as a solitary practice, I'm sure I'll probably offend someone for that mixing-religious-practice thing, but on my own personal practice, I don't yet see how it could possibly be a bad thing or separate the practitioner from 'other' KO practitioners (since you used 'our practice', I'm using that 'our').


an action doesn't have to be bad, wrong, invalid, or anything of the sort to be less than appropriate for a particular situation. if i told you i always wear latex gloves when i draw blood from a patient, you'd be like, "yeah, of course, that makes sense." but if i told you i always wear latex gloves when i'm tutoring people in statistics, you'd probably be a little confused.

also, as other people have mentioned, senut isn't quite a "personal practice" as you seem to be thinking of it; it's more like a group practice you do alone. it's like saying a novena -- if you do it differently, it's not that you're not praying or that mary isn't listening, you're just not *saying a novena.*
ubenetsenu - "two appear shining"
sat Sekhmet-Mut her Khonsu
meryt Wesir her Serqet-Aset

tarot and heka by request

Offline Devo

  • Remetj
Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2012, 04:38:57 pm »
Quote from: Sage_of_Yinepu
KO is incredibly new; if there's a lot of dogma of this-must-be-how-it's-done-every-time-ism going on and a keep-other-practices separate issue, I'm a little worried.


As a whole, KO is rather lax about 'what must be done'. In my experience, the only thing (outside of state rituals and priestly stuff, which I know next to nothing about) that is really 'set in stone' is Senut. And it's that way for heka purposes. Everything else is fairly personalized as per the practitioner.

Keeping practices separate isn't specifically a KO thing- there are lots of groups out there that keep their two pratices separate. Usually, this is out of respect for the deities and entities that you are working with. It's kinda like- When in Rome, do as the Romans. Kami have certain rituals and offerings that they like. It would be disrespectful to suddenyl decide I wanted to honor them differently (with, say, Senut). Conversely, it would be rather illogical and probably ill advised to suddenly put my Kemetic icons into a Kamidana. It just makes no sense.

While I think there can be a certain level of overlap btwn *some* faiths, generally speaking, I think it's better to keep the religious practices separate, because different cultures have different ways of doing things.

-Devo
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Offline Bestekeni

  • Semer-Wati
  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2012, 05:04:28 pm »
Re: A Wiccan saying a Christian prayer while in circle -- That's acceptable in Wicca.  Wicca is an eclectic practice.  Kemetic Orthodoxy is not.  We aren't saying that other religions are wrong, we're saying that as Kemetic Orthodox practitioners, we keep our practices separate.  
Fedw diviner for Bes
𓃀𓎂𓀭𓏏𓎡𓈖𓁐
Sat Bes her Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Meryt Heru-wer her Amun-Ra her Bast

Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2012, 09:08:50 pm »
@Tanebet: Very true, though Christian Wiccans have found ways to  blend & harmonize the two poles into a comforting grey zone for those who can't truly feel at home with just one or the other. :) But personally- I'm definitely right with you on the Christian-prayers-in-circle example.

I haven't seen any rituals of KO yet, but I was running on the assumption that most of them were either brand new downloaded from the Nisut's channeling, or as closely reproduced as possible to the old rites. What I meant by dogma was in the 'doing the same thing exactly the same every time' type thing: I like change and fluidity.

@Khenne: M htp! <3

I agree; tapping into repetition does have its own power, but I tend to leave that more to high ceremonialists rather than do much of it myself. :) And thanks, it IS very helpful. I'm really excited about the beginners' course- I'm still wondering if KO will be my new path, or if They ask me to keep going along as a "Tameran" Wiccan.

@Uben: hehehe, things out of context is awesome/fun. :) Also, thank you for the clarification: I perceived Senut to be a personal ritual but wasn't sure how/if it linked with others. So working Senut is like doing it yourself, yet tapping into a pool of communal energy while doing so?

@Devo: :) It sounds like I'll like it very much, then. And in that context, it does make sense.

@Bes: I also agree, though I'm of the opinion some individuals will likely get impatient/ticked off, lol. (I wouldn't personally be fond of it nor pull something like that.) So the primary difference then, would be Tameran Wiccans = Wiccan frameworks & working with the Egyptian deities, etc, and KO = separate practices kept separate? Makes sense..

:) Thanks so much you guys for handling this fox's questions, lol- you're so amazingly welcoming and I'm really grateful to be able to poke everyone's brain space so much. Communities like this are very rare!
~Love is all there is~

Offline Taji

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2012, 10:19:35 pm »
Quote from: Sage_of_Yinepu

I haven't seen any rituals of KO yet, but I was running on the assumption that most of them were either brand new downloaded from the Nisut's channeling, or as closely reproduced as possible to the old rites. What I meant by dogma was in the 'doing the same thing exactly the same every time' type thing: I like change and fluidity.
 


For us, doing the same thing exactly the same every time is part of the power of the ritual.  You're doing the same thing you did yesterday and will do tomorrow.  You're doing the same thing that every other KO across the globe is doing . . . maybe even at the same time.  This constancy and multiplication builds powerful heka.  Even once the ritual is memorized, we're still encouraged to read the words from a sheet in order to minimize any unconscious and unintended changing of the rite.  And while senut is a modern ritual, I believe this same emphasis was placed on rites in antiquity.  

There is a section within senut that is designated for more free form prayers and spending time in Netjer's Presence.  And like Ubenet said, you can still do freeform and fluid type stuff.  That can be a beautiful way to honor the Gods.  But it isn't senut. :)

I hope you enjoy the beginners course whether this ends up being for you or not.  :)

Senebty,

Taji
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Taji »
Taseddjebbastmut,
Daughter of Bast-Mut
Beloved of Yinepu, Sekhmet, Set, Heru-wer, & Aset

Offline ubenet

  • Guest
  • Country: us
Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2012, 09:03:09 am »
Quote from: Sage_of_Yinepu

@Uben: hehehe, things out of context is awesome/fun. :) Also, thank you for the clarification: I perceived Senut to be a personal ritual but wasn't sure how/if it linked with others. So working Senut is like doing it yourself, yet tapping into a pool of communal energy while doing so?


totally -- this is one of my favorite webcomics: http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/index.php?date=042612 -- but it's not as awesome if you don't *realize* it's out of context, if you catch my drift.

yeah, communal energy sounds pretty close! that's why it's the same. i think of it like synchronized waves, but that's basically the one topic i understood in physics ;)
ubenetsenu - "two appear shining"
sat Sekhmet-Mut her Khonsu
meryt Wesir her Serqet-Aset

tarot and heka by request

Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2012, 09:06:36 am »
Quote from: Sage_of_Yinepu
So the primary difference then, would be Tameran Wiccans = Wiccan frameworks & working with the Egyptian deities, etc, and KO = separate practices kept separate? Makes sense..


Keeping practices separate isn't only a KO thing, as Devo has mentioned. Even within the modern Kemetic world, there are other groups and individuals who try to do that. Often, if they have to invent something new (like the Senut rite,) they look at other Egyptian rituals and create something in the same style that works the same as other Egyptian rites, rather than taking something from a different tradition.

The Egyptians were pretty careful to avoid changing rituals, writing them in stone on temple walls, and having lector priests read the correct rites from papyri. If the gods are unchanging, maybe the rituals shouldn't change either.

In any case, the standard part of Senut relates to blessing the natron and water you use to purify yourself, and 'opening the shrine and presenting offerings." After you've presented whatever you're offering, you're on your own. Pray, sing, play the saxophone or ukulele, dance, draw, read poetry, meditate. Make up limericks about pyramids.

What people do for the 2nd half of Senut would make an interesting thread, wouldn't it? ;)
Kemetic Reconnaissance Blog
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Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2012, 02:51:12 pm »
But along that lines, if the gods are unchanging, then would that make our world completely static and unchanging? (What happens on one level affects the others. Unless of course, there's still relevancy, in which case it makes sense then that they haven't needed to change :) )

@Taji: Confused; you said, there's a section in Senut where you can freeform but it's not Senut?

@Ube: XD I love that comic. I used to spend a lot of my spare time at my old work just confusing people by doing things out of context. :)

Also, communal energy sounds great. ^^ I think I understand now. Thanks <3

@Helmsman: It's really interesting!
~Love is all there is~

Offline Devo

  • Remetj
Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2012, 03:00:29 pm »
Quote
@Taji: Confused; you said, there's a section in Senut where you can freeform but it's not Senut?


You're mixing two things into one :P There is a section in Senut that is for personal whatevers.

Taji is also saying that freeform can be beautiful and all that- but if you're free forming it, it's not Senut.

-Devo
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 03:00:42 pm by Devo »
dA | FB | Tumblr | WP

Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2012, 12:29:40 pm »
Quote from: Bestekeni
Re: A Wiccan saying a Christian prayer while in circle -- That's acceptable in Wicca.  Wicca is an eclectic practice.  Kemetic Orthodoxy is not.  
 


Not to split hairs but, no it's really not. If it's specifically Ecclectic or Solitary Wicca, than yes. If it's BTW, Alexandrian or another defined tradition it's not really acceptable as  Wicca, as there *are* traditional practices and methods that need to be learned if you want to actually *be* or practice Wiccan. I've never heard any of my teachers suggest or allow a Christian prayer in ritual because, well, we don't practice Christianity, we have our own stuff. Similarly I wouldn't even bother asking Hemet "Hey, if I want to cast a circle before I do senut, can you give me the thumbs up on calling it a KO ritual?" Of course she wouldn't! Does that stop me from doing so? Nope, I just *will not* be able to call it KO. Basically the same as any other faith where people are often confused or outraged when told "nope, this isn't X at all, sorry", there is a level at which you're no longer practicing a specific tradition, rather something else- be it Kemetic flavored Wicca, Buddhist flavored Kemeticism, another form of mix & match solitary practice, so on. That's not a "judgment" and I think people often see a judgment statement in being corrected as to what's what-when it's not a judgment, it's simply the truth.
Timu

Sat Aset, meryt Wepwawet her Renenutet


Offline ZabetRa

  • Shemsu
Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2012, 12:35:04 pm »
Quote from: Ta_Imu_Aset
Quote from: Bestekeni
Re: A Wiccan saying a Christian prayer while in circle -- That's acceptable in Wicca.  Wicca is an eclectic practice.  Kemetic Orthodoxy is not.  
 


Not to split hairs but, no it's really not. If it's specifically Ecclectic or Solitary Wicca, than yes. If it's BTW, Alexandrian or another defined tradition it's not really acceptable as  Wicca, as there *are* traditional practices and methods that need to be learned if you want to actually *be* or practice Wiccan. I've never heard any of my teachers suggest or allow a Christian prayer in ritual because, well, we don't practice Christianity, we have our own stuff. Similarly I wouldn't even bother asking Hemet "Hey, if I want to cast a circle before I do senut, can you give me the thumbs up on calling it a KO ritual?" Of course she wouldn't! Does that stop me from doing so? Nope, I just *will not* be able to call it KO. Basically the same as any other faith where people are often confused or outraged when told "nope, this isn't X at all, sorry", there is a level at which you're no longer practicing a specific tradition, rather something else- be it Kemetic flavored Wicca, Buddhist flavored Kemeticism, another form of mix & match solitary practice, so on. That's not a "judgment" and I think people often see a judgment statement in being corrected as to what's what-when it's not a judgment, it's simply the truth.


Very well put! Exactly what I wanted to say! ^.^
Senebty,
ZabetRa | "Ra's Dignity"

Sat Ra her Nisut (AUS) Hekatawy I
Meryt Heru-wer, Bast-Mut, Djehuty, her Wepwawet-Yinepu

Ankh, Udja, Seneb

Offline Taji

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2012, 01:04:01 pm »
Sorry I wasn't more clear.  Yes, there's a section of sent that is free form.  But the rest of sent has to be done a certain way.  You can't free form the parts that aren't free form and still have it be senut.  
Taseddjebbastmut,
Daughter of Bast-Mut
Beloved of Yinepu, Sekhmet, Set, Heru-wer, & Aset

Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2012, 03:19:16 pm »
@Dev: aaah, okay. That makes sense. Thanks. :)

@Ta_Imu: I agree with you there. I come from eclectic Wicca myself; but as far as the traditional Wicca branches, you're right, lol. I've even had a few hard ones go so far as to call me a blasphemy because I practice non-Gardnerian, non-Alexandrian "not-even-Wicca, -maybe- 'neoWicca'", and be repetitively offended by my presence (I guess.. so much for perfect love/trust there, eh?).

Part of what I'm trying to understand is what exactly is 'in' Kemetic/Tameran Wicca along with waiting to hear if I got into the beginner's course or not for K.O. There seems to be a really big lack of info out there on the former.

@Taji: Thanks ^^

I think I'm understanding everything you guys are saying :) It's great being able to hear your thoughts. If I do get into KO, I will develop proper respect for it and do things separately.
~Love is all there is~

Offline Mesetibes

  • W'ab (priest)
  • Country: ca
Re: Multi-Faith and Multi-Practice
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2012, 03:22:35 pm »
Quote from: Sage_of_Yinepu
Part of what I'm trying to understand is what exactly is 'in' Kemetic/Tameran Wicca along with waiting to hear if I got into the beginner's course or not for K.O. There seems to be a really big lack of info out there on the former.


Hotep Sage,

The Kemetic Interfaith Netowrk might also be a valuable resource for you to look at. There are forums as well to interact with other members of not only this faith, but other Kemetic based faiths as well.

http://kemetic.info/

Hope this helps.

Senebty!
~Maret
Rev. Mesetibes
Sat Heqat, meryt Djehuti her Ptah her Heru-wer
Fedw Diviner
2011 Wep Ronpet Frog Princess/
W'abet Nekhen Sha'a Sha'at Imef

 


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