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Author Topic: About Set and balance  (Read 13322 times)

Offline Hentyhotep

  • Shemsu
Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2013, 04:52:51 pm »
Hi Maaef,

I understand your frustration with the chaotic realities of the material world and I respect your point of view as subjectively valid.

For me, the challenge of dealing with chaos is easier when accepting that life just isn't fair and sometimes there are valuable lessons to learn in unfair situations as well as orderly ones.  What I perceive as chaos may actually be something of benefit to Maat and I may be missing the entire context.  For me, life gets harder when I demand that it happen the way I think it should.  Being primarily a child of Wesir I am very whiny about things being fair and orderly.  Set, though, has helped me to recognize the Divinity in chaotic  situations and this has, ironically, made me a more peaceful person through acknowledging and accepting the chaos in the world and taking responsibility and accountability for my own chaos and part in it.

I think it is ironic that Ancient Kemet thrived peacefully under pharoahs such as Ramses II who honored and acknowledged Set but dwindled and was conquered by neighboring peoples when Set was vilified. I am not sure that the philosophy of dualism has ever been a healthy one culturally.  

If we look at the Dark Ages, for example, which I would characterize as the height of dualistic thinking (God vs. Satan) we see that life was actually very chaotic and dark at a time when people did not honor the Gods of the Dark Face but instead projected all that was considered dark or chaotic onto one big bad evil demon.  This gave the political leaders of this time the tendency towards the us vs. them mentality where either a person is totally good and on the side of God or totally bad and on the side of the Devil.  I see this worldview as the underpinning of the Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials which are tragic moments in history that I think we need to be careful not to repeat.

Due to these reasons and many many more it has become difficult for me to go back to viewing Set like a demon but, again, I respect your personal gnosis.  Thanks for your respectful tone in this discussion.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 07:06:42 pm by Hentyhotep »
Hentyhotep
"The Two Sides are Reconciled"
Sa Wesir her Set; mery Wepwawet-Yinepu her Ra-Heru-akhety

Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2013, 05:04:35 pm »
I can only state that I do my best to look at it less as good vs evil or even order vs chaos and more as a different route through life. Set's route has only done me good in making me want something better and different for myself and those I love. In most other things it has failed me. This is just my experience though and I am perfectly willing to accept that for others it is better and that they are perfectly good people, I have met many since coming here.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 05:07:15 pm by MaaefRaHeruakhety »

Offline ubenet

  • Guest
  • Country: us
Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2013, 05:54:27 pm »
Quote from: Hentyhotep
If we look at the Dark Ages, for example, which I would characterize as the height of dualistic thinking (God vs. Satan) we see that life was actually very chaotic and dark at a time when people did not honor the Gods of the Dark Face but instead projected all that was considered dark or chaotic onto one big bad evil demon.  This gave the political leaders of this time the tendency towards the us vs. them mentality where either a person is totally good and on the side of God or totally bad and on the side of the Devil.


the term "dark ages" has fallen out of favor among historians because it furthers exactly this kind of misunderstanding. the middle ages were incredibly culturally rich and varied, and it bothers me that petrarch's opinion on its latin literature is used to dismiss several centuries full of all kinds of religious thought (among other things) out of hand.

/end medievalist rant :)
ubenetsenu - "two appear shining"
sat Sekhmet-Mut her Khonsu
meryt Wesir her Serqet-Aset

tarot and heka by request

Offline Hentyhotep

  • Shemsu
Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2013, 09:11:02 pm »
Point taken regarding the historical accuracy of the term "Dark Ages".  I can see how this could be considered a negative generalization of the period.  

On the other hand, I do not think it is inaccurate to describe at least some of the thinking of the Middle Ages (such as the type of thinking which inspired the Inquisitions) in the way I described it: as excessively dualistic in a ditheistic sense and intolerant of any opposition to what the official hierarchy deemed as dogma.  

That is also not to say that this kind of worldview only occurred in Middle Ages Europe either.  It was only an example.
Hentyhotep
"The Two Sides are Reconciled"
Sa Wesir her Set; mery Wepwawet-Yinepu her Ra-Heru-akhety

Offline Bestekeni

  • Semer-Wati
  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2013, 10:05:46 pm »
I would suggest doing a little bit more reading regarding modern historical scholarship and discourse before making statements like the above.
Fedw diviner for Bes
𓃀𓎂𓀭𓏏𓎡𓈖𓁐
Sat Bes her Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Meryt Heru-wer her Amun-Ra her Bast

Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2013, 03:44:43 am »
Forgive me for putting another 2 cents in against my better judgement but Hentyhotep aren't we still somewhat of a Dualistic faith as you would put it? Netjer vs. Uncreated?

And I am so tired of people using the Inquisition and Salem witch trials as blanket defenses in any pagan conversation. I swear if I hear someone crying about "The Burning Times" on more time I will lose it. And the Salem witch trials in particular were, while sad, caused by such a convoluted mess of different contributing factors that placing the blame on just one of them is unjustifiable. People have been killing each other since the beginning of history for every reason imaginable. While religion is often blamed what type of religion hasn't seemed to matter in the scheme of things.  

The hypersensitivity when it comes to the topic of Set. I see people fairly often mention having trouble seeing eye to eye with Netjeru outside their RPD and rarely does anyone mention it. However if Set is said Netjeru there is at least one, often more people that come running with accusations of Set being demonized and said person being talked to like they are a less enlightened human being. I know that Set is touchy because of his negative reputation outside the church but it is hypocritical. Some people don't the same relationship with every Netjeru, why would we have RPDs if we were supposed to? I respect Set as Netjeru but we don't have a great working relationship.

My apologies again. I needed to vent and here was probably not the place to do it. But I had no one else to talk to today. I guess I'll go put myself in the corner now.

Offline Hentyhotep

  • Shemsu
Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2013, 06:31:04 am »
There is definitely an element of good vs evil in this faith but I perceive the thinking of most in this faith to allow for a more nuanced perception of this than the absolutist thinking I was referring to.  Such absolutist thinking has existed in all times and places.  The Inquisition was just a particularly egregious example of this in my point of view.

I was not taking anything here personally about Set.  I only viewed it as your own personal gnosis and I respected it.  Sometimes I do wonder why people need to make it a point that the detailed things in the stories are bad and nasty deeds, however.  I rarely see the same kind of discussion about a Goddess like Sekhmet who almost slaughtered all of mankind.  In fact, there are "bad deeds" done by just about every face of Netjer I can think of.  I think this faith allows for our Deities to be nuanced in that way and more human and more like us.  This could allow us to be more tolerant of our foibles whereas perhaps a view that to be religious one has to be someone else's idea of perfect might not allow for such tolerance.  

I do tend to perceive a negative bias towards Set but it could just be personal sensitivity since I am devoted to Him.  I may be too close to the subject to properly judge. :)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 06:38:41 am by Hentyhotep »
Hentyhotep
"The Two Sides are Reconciled"
Sa Wesir her Set; mery Wepwawet-Yinepu her Ra-Heru-akhety

Offline Bestekeni

  • Semer-Wati
  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2013, 07:10:29 am »
However, absolutist thinking had little to do with the Inquisition.  Just because one's understanding of a situation lacks nuance does not mean the situation lacked nuance.
Fedw diviner for Bes
𓃀𓎂𓀭𓏏𓎡𓈖𓁐
Sat Bes her Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Meryt Heru-wer her Amun-Ra her Bast

Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2013, 08:53:23 am »
In regards to using religion as a reason for things, it has been done all throughout history, even Ancient Egypt's rulers used this excuse.  Thing is, it came down to greed.  It usually always does.  Whether the gods truly favored some people over others, whether the gods truly told any one person that this or that is his or her's...  I don't know.

Okay, I know this is very touchy, and I cannot claim to understand everything being talked about in this thread right now (in fact, I need to go back and read and re-read more slowly to grasp it), but I did wish to ask:  Would any of you be say the same about the Nazi regime and the Holocaust as you are about the Inquisition?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 09:03:35 am by Seta »
"Give sorrow a Sailor smile."
~ "Makenai" by Hanazawa Kae; Sailor Moon Stars, Season 5, episode 200

"Beyond this road, running on far and long, must surely be something we can believe in."
~ "Pure Heart" by Rikki; Final Fantasy VII, "Aerith's Theme"

Offline Bestekeni

  • Semer-Wati
  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2013, 03:03:25 pm »
If someone tried to give it a simplistic, middle school social studies "cause", certainly. It does everyone a disservice to discuss history in that manner.
Fedw diviner for Bes
𓃀𓎂𓀭𓏏𓎡𓈖𓁐
Sat Bes her Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Meryt Heru-wer her Amun-Ra her Bast

Offline MiMafdet

  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2013, 03:56:03 pm »
Quote from: Seta
Would any of you be say the same about the Nazi regime and the Holocaust as you are about the Inquisition?
>The topic has been Godwin'd
For the record, I skimmed through the thread and haven't even able to follow very well, so this is not really in response to anyone in particular, but the Godwinning of the thread piqued my interest enough to say a thing.
However, I didn't want to say anything because I really don't like getting into it, but honestly, I feel like people tend to equate chaos with evil. Chaos, itself, is lack of order, lack of stability. It's not inherently evil, but people think it's a bad thing because - let's face it - no one likes their routines shaken up. Change is necessary, and Set oversees these necessary changes. In my opinion, He is better translated as the god of Change.
Because of the negative associations of chaos, Set is demonized and mistaken for Ap/ep- the force of uncreation. Ap/ep is uncreation and the negative. That being said, I feel that the Nazi regime and Holocaust would be more a force of Ap/ep, symbolically being agents of Ap/ep. The changes necessary to combat the Nazis (sacrifices made, lifestyles changed, etc) would be Set working against Ap/ep, for a greater good. Nobody in the world lived a normal life during WWII, and I see that as being Set working full-force to destroy Ap/ep. That's my thoughts on that.

Regarding Set and Balance, in order to balance a scale that is tipping, something about the situation must change. Something somewhere needs to happen, whether it's a gain or a loss. Set is chaos, chaos is change. Set comes into action when someone takes away from the heavier side or adds to the lighter side. Chaos exists when grandma dies or when Julie and Eric have a baby. But, all of this is how I view Set and try not to demonize Him. It's hard to have a relationship with a deity both when you're intimidated by Him and your Mother cut off His testicles. ;)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 03:56:22 pm by MiMafdet »
Sat Mafdet her Nisut (AUS)
Meryt Sekhmet-Hethert, Wepwawet-Yinepu, Hedjhotep-Heru-sa-Aset, her Shezmu

Regardless if I'm active, if you can read this: I am always here for you. Email MiMafdet@gmail if you ever are in need. Of anything. Ever. ♥

Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2013, 04:28:13 pm »
Quote from: Bestekeni
If someone tried to give it a simplistic, middle school social studies "cause", certainly. It does everyone a disservice to discuss history in that manner.  


I'm sorry, I don't understand.  Would you be kind enough to elaborate.  Thank you.  (Not being snippy, just honestly, am not understanding your wording.)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 05:19:39 pm by Seta »
"Give sorrow a Sailor smile."
~ "Makenai" by Hanazawa Kae; Sailor Moon Stars, Season 5, episode 200

"Beyond this road, running on far and long, must surely be something we can believe in."
~ "Pure Heart" by Rikki; Final Fantasy VII, "Aerith's Theme"

Offline Bestekeni

  • Semer-Wati
  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2013, 04:54:41 pm »
Quote from: Seta
Quote from: Bestekeni
If someone tried to give it a simplistic, middle school social studies "cause", certainly. It does everyone a disservice to discuss history in that manner.  


I'm sorry, I don't understand.  Would you be kind enough to elaborate.  Thank you.  (Not being snippy, just honestly, am not understanding your wording.)


My objection in this thread has been to inaccurate historical discourse.   However, this is off-topic, so let's return to the subject of Set.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Bestekeni »
Fedw diviner for Bes
𓃀𓎂𓀭𓏏𓎡𓈖𓁐
Sat Bes her Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Meryt Heru-wer her Amun-Ra her Bast

Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2013, 05:20:24 pm »
I think the truth is that Set (or at least a part of him) serves a more negative role and Apep (again, maybe just a part) serves a more positive role than we think.  Just a hunch (and maybe bad wording)...

Quote from: Bestekeni
Quote from: Seta
Quote from: Bestekeni
If someone tried to give it a simplistic, middle school social studies "cause", certainly. It does everyone a disservice to discuss history in that manner.  


I'm sorry, I don't understand.  Would you be kind enough to elaborate.  Thank you.  (Not being snippy, just honestly, am not understanding your wording.)


My objection in this thread has been to inaccurate historical discourse.   However, this is off-topic, so let's return to the subject of Set.


Thank you for answering.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 05:22:54 pm by Seta »
"Give sorrow a Sailor smile."
~ "Makenai" by Hanazawa Kae; Sailor Moon Stars, Season 5, episode 200

"Beyond this road, running on far and long, must surely be something we can believe in."
~ "Pure Heart" by Rikki; Final Fantasy VII, "Aerith's Theme"

Offline Hentyhotep

  • Shemsu
Re: About Set and balance
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2013, 05:29:36 pm »
I think absolutist thinking would have much to do with the Inquisitions.  Moral absolutism is what inspires inquisitions.

But, you are correct that this is off topic.  It was only an example I was using of why equating everything that one might perceive as chaotic and disorderly as bad and evil or demonic can have nasty consequences.  Whether one is referring to the Inquisition or the Holocaust or the 9-11 bombing matters little.  My point is that this kind of us (the "good guys" on the side of God) v. them (the "bad guys" who are the evil Satan) mentality is short sighted and can lead to serious social problems.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 05:37:47 pm by Hentyhotep »
Hentyhotep
"The Two Sides are Reconciled"
Sa Wesir her Set; mery Wepwawet-Yinepu her Ra-Heru-akhety

 


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