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Author Topic: Nine? parts of the soul  (Read 6578 times)

Offline Demaimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: au
Nine? parts of the soul
« on: November 12, 2013, 11:52:56 am »
I'm looking for a reminder on the Ancient Egyptian soul. I understand the the ones I remember as

Ba - the eternal soul
Ka -the personality
Sekhem - life energy rather like chi
Khat - the body

What have I forgotten?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Demaimuti »
sat Bast her Hethert-Mut, meryt Aset-Serqet, Heru-wer, Djehuty.

Artist and writer.
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Offline Raheri

  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 12:04:48 pm »
I believe there are only 7. The remainder is the Khaibit.Then when you die, the akh and sahu.
Son of Wesir | Heri-sesheta

"O my heart which I had from my mother,
Do not rise up agianst me as a witness in the presence of the Lord of Things;
Do not bring up anything agianst me in the presence of the Great God, Lord of the West."

Offline Bezenwepwy

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: gb
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 12:53:57 pm »
You've got ba and ka the wrong way around. :)
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Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 04:02:49 pm »
em hotep

Quote from: Bezenwepwy
You've got ba and ka the wrong way around. :)

Really? Looks right to me - or was the original post edited?

Anyway, there's Shwt (Pronounce "shoot"), the shadow. Khaibit also means shadow, according to my dictionary, but Shwt is the word I'd been familiar with.
Are the two the same?


senebty

Ma'en
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Offline Demaimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: au
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2013, 04:28:43 pm »
What's the sahu?

Can anyone expand on Khaibit? I know what I expect something called the shadow to be like but my modern biases include an education in Jungian theory.
sat Bast her Hethert-Mut, meryt Aset-Serqet, Heru-wer, Djehuty.

Artist and writer.
Demai on Deviant Art
Demai on Medium

Offline Bezenwepwy

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: gb
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 04:50:23 pm »
Quote from: Maen
Really? Looks right to me - or was the original post edited?


Not that any of these concepts can really be truly summed up with just a word, but surely the ba is the 'personality' and the ka is the more impersonal vital 'soul'?
On the Temple Steps - My amulet shop.
Per-Sabu.org - More jackals than you can shake a stick at.
Big Bad Jackal - Another jackal-laden venue.

Offline Sageling

  • Remetj
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 04:52:32 pm »
Sorry- I thought the ba was eternal and the ka is what may become an akhu. Fairly certain that's what was learned in beginner's class but I'm not right at my notes.
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Offline Bezenwepwy

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: gb
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2013, 05:51:06 pm »
If those are the KO definitions for those words then carry on.
On the Temple Steps - My amulet shop.
Per-Sabu.org - More jackals than you can shake a stick at.
Big Bad Jackal - Another jackal-laden venue.

Offline Sarytsenuwi

  • Rev Kaitlyn, Ordained Clergy - Sema Kau Bak
  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2013, 07:51:33 pm »
Sageling... it's trickier than one being personality and one being soul, and here's my humble effort to explain why:

As I've come to understand it in the past few years...

The ba is eternal *and* only ever ascribed to one individual, so in a way, it's our personality that lasts forever. What makes us uniquely *us.*  But we don't really "interact" with it in the way we do our ka. It doesn't require attention, or "feeding" as the folks around here will often say, it just continues into the afterlife where it plays a more... active role, you might say.

The ka only lasts for one mortal lifetime as our soul, how we identify as ourselves during that span of years, and what we more commonly interact with: a conscience of sorts. The story of Khnum creating an infant's body and Heqet bringing it to life? It's the ka she's granting the body, just for that one body's time. So you can sort of see it as personality in that regard, but it's more... our vital essence, what defines us as alive rather than dead. When we die, it leaves us, but continues to requires attention.

This is further complicated by the fact that I'm fairly certain that bau as a concept only came about in later periods.

It also gets messy when you try to do research on the two forms: you can probably read ten different sources and they'll say ten different things. For example, the introduction of my copy of the Book of Coming Forth by Day claims that both the ba and the ka played a role in the afterlife. With the ba (see various forms of avian imagery) being the primary form that allowed the soul to return the land of the living while the ka was "the most commonly mentioned form that the human personality could assume after death" (Goelet 2008, 152). So... yes. A bit muddy all around, but I think if you're willing to complicate things a bit, you can see how Bezen has the right of it, but you weren't entirely off either. ;)
Rev. Sarytsenuwi
(Standardbearer of my Two | Porta-estandarte de meus Dois)
Sat Set her Bast | Meryt Heru-wer, Hethert-Nut, her Heqat
W'ab Nekhen Medetsen net Nekh | Fedw for Set and Bast

Offline Arienihethert

  • Tawy Bak
  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2013, 08:04:44 pm »
Quote from: Maen
Anyway, there's Shwt (Pronounce "shoot"), the shadow. Khaibit also means shadow, according to my dictionary, but Shwt is the word I'd been familiar with.
Are the two the same?


My understanding is that the Shwt is the shadow your physical form casts in the light, and the khaibit is the spooky Unseen version of it.
Look out the window. And doesn't this remind you of when you were in the boat, and then later that night you were lying looking up at the ceiling, and the water in your head was not dissimilar from the landscape, and you think to yourself Why is it that the landscape is moving but the boat is still?

Offline Bezenwepwy

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: gb
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2013, 08:39:02 pm »
From my understanding, the kA is what we'd probably describe as 'genetic.' It is shared/split (but never diminished in doing so) and passes down through a family and, like genetics in this particular function, it does carry certain inherent traits. (Bearing in mind that in AE, status/position in life was largely hereditary. So things like a person's fortune in life was thought to be tied to the kA which was passed down. 'Like father, like son' is a way of putting it.)

But of course the kA is also a sort of animating life-force. Hence, when someone uses heka they are activating their kA. There's the ever-important kA-embrace too, used to energize open statues. One of the other meanings of kA has to do with food/offering and that energy exchange required to sustain life. Also, opened statues are kA-statues of the gods, meaning they can hold that god's essence within them (but again, without in any way diminishing that god's energy.) I guess in that regard the kA can be a carrier for personality or the animating force behind a 'manifestation' but yeah... it's complicated!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Bezenwepwy »
On the Temple Steps - My amulet shop.
Per-Sabu.org - More jackals than you can shake a stick at.
Big Bad Jackal - Another jackal-laden venue.

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2013, 02:27:36 am »
em hotep

the 'genetic' explanation is an interesting idea, but I don't agree with it. Looking at the ancient sources, at least, I'd say that the Ka is the main and central essence of an individual person, the "me" that is (or can be) independent of the body.

The Ka of a human being:
Humans have only one Ka, except for the king, perhaps. The Ka is what can stay after death, what can remain on earth by taking residence in the mummy or a statue as a substitute for the living body, what receives the offerings of the living (the offering formula states "to the Ka of")
In living humans, I'd see the Ka as a person's inner self - that would fit with the use of the word in the Teaching of Ptah-hotep:
"do not subtract time from following the heart.
 Harming its time is an offence to the ka."
The evidence for the Ka as something that's passed down in the family, that's pretty thin, I believe. There are some personal names that hint on this, like Ka-gem-n-i : I found the Ka, but I don't know of anything else.

The Ka of a God:
Gods have a Ka, too, and they can have more than one. The first source for this I could think of are Royal Throne Names, such as:
Nefer-Ka-Re : beautiful/perfect is the Ka of Ra
Neb-Ka : Lord of the Ka (?)
Men-Kau-Re : lasting are the Kau of Ra (Kau is the plural form)
Shepss-Ka-ef : rich is his Ka
... and this is just up to Dyn. IV, the list goes on like that

I especially like Hatshepsut's Ma'at-Ka-Re: Ma'at is the Ka of Ra.
But I believe that here, too, the translation as 'essence/personality' is quite fitting.


ok, I have to start my shift at work now...
senebty

Ma'en
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2013, 03:37:44 am »
Ok, I think I just remembered the remaining two to make up nine:

Ka
Ba
Sekhem
Chat
Khaibit/Shwt

Akh
Sahu

Ren (name)
Ib (heart)


senebty

Ma'en
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Offline Demaimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: au
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2013, 03:59:40 am »
What's the Chat?

What's the Sahu?

I don't remember hearing about either before this thread.
sat Bast her Hethert-Mut, meryt Aset-Serqet, Heru-wer, Djehuty.

Artist and writer.
Demai on Deviant Art
Demai on Medium

Offline Tanebet

  • Rev Astrid - Ordained Clergy, Semer-Wati
  • Country: 00
Re: Nine? parts of the soul
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2013, 05:07:30 am »
Chat/Khat would be the physical body
Sahw would be the spiritual body
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

 


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