Register
collapse collapse

* User Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 45
  • Dot Hidden: 1
  • Dot Users: 3
  • Dot Users Online:

Author Topic: Stance on LGBTQ rights  (Read 5583 times)

Offline Biwimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Stance on LGBTQ rights
« on: December 20, 2013, 07:38:14 am »
I've already read threads regarding homosexuality (I'm delighted by what I've found), but I need to know KO views on people who are trans* or Genderqueer (doesn't identify inside the traditional gender binary). I identify as gender neutral, which tends to be ignored a lot by other religions. I need to know that I won't be left out because of gender-based rituals or traditions.
Biwi
“My two mothers set a good example (for me).”

Child of Sekhmet-Hethert and Serqet-Aset.
Beloved of Khonsu, Set, and Wepwawet-Yinepu.

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2013, 08:37:19 am »
em hotep

we have quite a few people here already who identify somewhere outside the traditional male/female role model. The Netjeru haven't complained yet, I get the feeling that They even actively encourage it.

On the surface, you might think that the Ancient Egyptians thought in binary terms of male and female - pairings and complements in that manner are quite frequent. But if you take a closer look, you'll find Names of Netjer defined as "Mother of mother, father of fathers" or "One third female, two thirds male".

As far as I know there is not a single rite or title in modern Kemetic Orthodoxy that's restricted to the one or other gender.
You'd just have to decide which grammatical form we should use when referring to you, there's no gender neutral pronoun in either English or Egyptian.


senebty

Ma'en
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 08:44:19 am by Maen »
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Offline Biwimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2013, 08:58:19 am »
Thank you so much! I'm delighted to hear that, and it's definitely making me more confident in my decision to convert.
Biwi
“My two mothers set a good example (for me).”

Child of Sekhmet-Hethert and Serqet-Aset.
Beloved of Khonsu, Set, and Wepwawet-Yinepu.

Offline Itenumuti

  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 11:38:44 am »
I'm genderqueer, and no one's ever batted an eye. ^_^ Folks around here tend to be incredibly supportive of an individual's identity and preferences. And as Ma'en said, we don't have a lot of binary-gendered rites or titles, unlike some forms of paganism.

If you're interested in some of the queer Netjeru, I did a blog post on a few of Them here. I've learned about a few more since then, so I really ought to do an updated edition, too. :D
Senebty, Tenu
𓇋𓏏𓈖𓏌𓏲𓂉𓏛𓄿𓏭
Child of Nebt-het & Hethert-Nut
Beloved of Ma'ahes, Serqet, & Wepwawet
𓉠𓃕𓄂𓆫𓃧

Offline Ha'autmuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 02:25:25 pm »
I'm a trans guy and becoming Kemetic has actually helped me a LOT in accepting myself. As others have already stated, there are many many Names who have some degree of gender fluidity. Discovering Hapi, for instance, made me feel loads better about not being able to afford chest surgery yet, since he is a male deity who has breasts. One of Atum's epithets is even "The Great He-She," and I think one of the myths describes how Atum was self-impregnated and thus birthed Wesir, Aset, Set, and Nebthet.

Additionally, I personally have friends who prefer they/them/their pronouns and I think that's a totally acceptable way to do neutral identification in English.
- Ha'aut

"Joy of My Mothers"
Son of Serqet and Hethert-Nut, beloved of Mut and Nehebkau.

Teach me to speak with their voices
Show me the way and I'll try again

Offline Sageling

  • Remetj
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2013, 01:05:02 pm »
Quote from: TheHandMaiden
I've already read threads regarding homosexuality (I'm delighted by what I've found), but I need to know KO views on people who are trans* or Genderqueer (doesn't identify inside the traditional gender binary). I identify as gender neutral, which tends to be ignored a lot by other religions. I need to know that I won't be left out because of gender-based rituals or traditions.


*waves* Hey there! Genderqueer/genderfluid Remetj myself Let's start a club and pass out t-shirts! So far haven't had much problem with my gender identity and KO, and far less issue than in my other polytheist/Pagan explorations. Netjer loves and cherishes me as I am and what's in my heart, not how society sees me.

Also, some of the Names do interesting gender things sometimes! There's Hethert-Wesir and a Sekhmet-Bast-Ra, and I've got a growing UPG that at least some of the jackal Names and Eyes of Ra might be genderqueer/otherwise nonbinary trans*.
Blog|Tumblr
--
Join the Emboatening Crew over on Kiva! Emboatening the boatless since Opet 2013.

Offline Vaalea

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: 00
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 11:19:29 am »
Em hotep, The Hand Maiden (and welcome to the forums, and temple *henu*).

As others have said, I do not see conflict in kemetism (or possibley Kemetic Orthodoxy as is) and being trans*gender (or gender non-conforming.) There's are many passages in the creation myths themselves, as well as other central myths, that are directly readable as those of trans* netjeru, or at least provide space for queer reading and interpretation.

As to personal experience, Netjer I have divined as guardian netjer within KO have actively switched the way they work with me directly related to which part of coming to terms with my gender identity & spiritual path I'm on, and ready for at any given year.

I have a sense they wouldn't be *so* patient if there were anything wrong with looking for oneself, and fulfilling way to exist in the world, were it isfet.~

I have found Nit to be particularly soothing presence to go to with issues of non-binary identification and fluidity, and Set and Set-as-The-Bawy is very helpful if one needs to make cuts in the physical space and restructure life back to order after that change (such as with coming outs).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Vaalea »
Vaalea, Shemsu em Kemet.
Sa Wepwawet-Ra her Bast, KO Sa Serqet.
Friend to Khepera and Sobek-Ra.

Tarot reader for Wepwawet & Serqet.

Offline Biwimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 11:11:10 am »
When I was Wiccan, I definitely did not feel welcome, so I'm delighted to see how different KO is. I also haven't met anyone outside of tumblr who is genderqueer, so this is quite a shock to me. I'll definitely read your post, too. Thank you!
Biwi
“My two mothers set a good example (for me).”

Child of Sekhmet-Hethert and Serqet-Aset.
Beloved of Khonsu, Set, and Wepwawet-Yinepu.

Offline Biwimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2013, 11:14:49 am »
Very few religions have gods that are genderqueer, so I've never really felt welcome. I get the feeling that that's going to be very different now. Also, I personally prefer to be called them or they, so I'm glad someone else thinks it's acceptable. Thank you!
Biwi
“My two mothers set a good example (for me).”

Child of Sekhmet-Hethert and Serqet-Aset.
Beloved of Khonsu, Set, and Wepwawet-Yinepu.

Offline Biwimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2013, 11:39:16 am »
Yeah, other pagan religions definitely aren't as accepting as KO seems to be. Wiccans kept saying that I'm my own goddess, and isn't that just awkward? It's awesome to know that even the gods don't always follow the binary, so I'll definitely feel less awkward talking to Them about these issues. Thanks!
Biwi
“My two mothers set a good example (for me).”

Child of Sekhmet-Hethert and Serqet-Aset.
Beloved of Khonsu, Set, and Wepwawet-Yinepu.

Offline Biwimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2013, 11:44:50 am »
I'll definitely be looking into the myths, and I'll go to Nit as soon as I get the chance. When I feel safe enough to come out, I'll also look toward Set-as-The-Bawy for help. It's also great to get so many amazing confirmations that KO is fine with who I am. Thank you!
Biwi
“My two mothers set a good example (for me).”

Child of Sekhmet-Hethert and Serqet-Aset.
Beloved of Khonsu, Set, and Wepwawet-Yinepu.

Offline Simcha

  • Remetj
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2013, 02:01:06 pm »
Just a little bit of UPG, but I am gay myself and I have never once felt even the slightest bit of issue with it from Netjer. During some of the more difficult parts of my life in reguards to my sexuality I've always felt Netjer there supporting me through my issues (although not always giving my the answers I wanted!)

And KO itself? Never once seen anyone here bat a judgmental eye either :)

Offline Sageling

  • Remetj
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2013, 12:13:43 pm »
Quote from: TheHandMaiden
Yeah, other pagan religions definitely aren't as accepting as KO seems to be. Wiccans kept saying that I'm my own goddess, and isn't that just awkward? It's awesome to know that even the gods don't always follow the binary, so I'll definitely feel less awkward talking to Them about these issues. Thanks!


UPG here but I tend to think of deities as having fluid identities, even more so in belief systems like Kemetic Orthodoxy where the deities are understood to be manifestations Themselves of a divine being/source. It can be a fun exercise to play with our regular conceptions of the gods. What would it mean if Het-heret were a trans Lady of the Sycamores? Or of Heru-sa-Aset taking equal parts of His parents' genders and being bigender or genderqueer? What if we did look at the myths through an LGBTQIA+ and trans*-inclusive lens? There are so many opportunities for seeing ourselves in the myths.

If humans experience something, I firmly believe there's a divine equivalent somewhere. :)
Blog|Tumblr
--
Join the Emboatening Crew over on Kiva! Emboatening the boatless since Opet 2013.

Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2013, 04:00:18 am »
Everyone should be treated equally before the law! As far as the Kemetic Orthodoxy, the stance has been repeated to me more than once, "What consenting adults do in their own bedrooms is none of our business."

I have a very good friend who is part of the Orthodoxy and is gay as well. He has nothing but good things to say about KO.

Homosexuality, heterosexuality and bisexuality are all found within Nature, and there were most certainly homosexuals in ancient Egypt. As far as I know, there are no records of people being punished in Ancient Egypt for their orientation.
Akins

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Stance on LGBTQ rights
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2013, 06:07:20 am »
em hotep

Quote
It can be a fun exercise to play with our regular conceptions of the gods.

I just thought of something.
The eight primordial gods, those that come as pairs:
Amun/Amunet, Nun/Naunet, Kek/Kauket, Heh/Hauhet.
Basically, it's the same word twice, just adding a female ending to one.
This is usually explained as a sign of vastness and completeness: male and female as two halves of a whole, and the combination as a pair a sign for completeness.

But can't we see this in another way, too? The Primordial Pairs are not two opposing or complementary elements, like Nut and Geb / Sky and Earth. They're simply a duplication.
And they exist in the world before ZepTepi, in a way they ARE "the world before ZepTepi". This is a realm of undefined endlessness, not of complementary structures.

What if the pairing of male and female is just a way to express an UNDEFINED gender?
All Egyptian words have a grammatical gender that is either male or female, you cannot construct a word without gender. And if you personalize a word as a God, this God will be male or female according to grammatical Gender. (See Heka and Ma'at)

Doubling a word and giving it in both forms, couldn't this been seen as an attempt to REMOVE Gender from the equation?
An attempt of showing that the Primordial Gods have both genders and none, of Them being outside of this binary definition?


senebty

Ma'en
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

 


* Board Stats

  • stats Total Members: 3252
  • stats Total Posts: 298335
  • stats Total Topics: 20449
  • stats Total Categories: 8
  • stats Total Boards: 124
  • stats Most Online: 955
anything