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Author Topic: Gods and Intimacy?  (Read 8223 times)

Offline Sarytsenuwi

  • Rev Kaitlyn, Ordained Clergy - Sema Kau Bak
  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2014, 04:46:02 pm »
"Disrespecting a culture by trying to fit your own personal practices into it, labeling it as culturally appropriate, and insisting that your doing so be universally acknowledged as valid is just as disrespectful as invalidating someone's personal practices."

This... could get a bit cloudy, though, no? I mean, we call Kemetic Orthodoxy a revivalist tradition, not a reconstructionist tradition, for a reason. There are changes, adaptations from the culture of ancient times that many Kemetic Orthodox believe to be necessary in order to help the religion function in the present day, and we don't deem them to be disrespectful.

We've chosen to set boundaries around things, enact certain taboos based on our respect for Hemet's decisions as a scholar of Kemet and her experiences as Nisut, her communications with Netjer which we place trust in. But boundaries were indeed created as to what could be adjusted, and what could not, and that *choice* seems an important thing to acknowledge to me. We are one branch of Kemeticism among many, others may very well take issue with our own "adjustments" so to speak.

But boundaries are necessary in the creation of an identity, and so aye, Kemetic Orthodox do not engage in sexual relationships with Netjeru. It is one (relatively small, I think) aspect of what helps to define that which sets us apart from those other branches.

As for what individuals within Kemetic Orthodoxy think of others who engage in this behavior? I suspect that's up the individual, provided that they respect the taboo for themselves if, again, they wish to claim that particular identity. The existence of the taboo does not necessarily equate to judging others, or invalidating their experiences. For example, at Set's request, I don't eat pork. I have no issue with other people who do. More seriously, I purify with natron. I have no issue with other people who purify with something else or don't purify at all.

That the issue at hand is sexuality just... exacerbates things. And that's largely a function of our Western culture, how much tension revolves around the subject in modern times and courtesy of (at least for Americans) a Puritannical past. But at the root of it, in my humble opinion, it just comes down to respecting the guidelines of the community you're in, *for yourself*, and making your own call as to what you believe regarding others.
Rev. Sarytsenuwi
(Standardbearer of my Two | Porta-estandarte de meus Dois)
Sat Set her Bast | Meryt Heru-wer, Hethert-Nut, her Heqat
W'ab Nekhen Medetsen net Nekh | Fedw for Set and Bast

Offline Taji

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2014, 04:46:55 pm »
Quote from: AddisonN


I don't recall saying anything about asking it to be universally accepted? I was just saying that invalidating someone's beliefs is not very fair, in my opinion. It's disrespectful.

*shrugs*


Perhaps.  But nowhere near as disrespectful as expecting Athena to show up naked or a Kemetic god to have sex with you just because that's how you want to roll despite established millennia old traditions about the culturally appropriate ways to interact with deities of various pantheons.  If these traditions are to change, I think that should be at Their discretion.  Not ours.  And have they for those people who have found fulfillment in doing these things?   Not for me to say.  But it's not enough evidence to change the paradigm.

So I guess I'm saying I have no comment on those Kemetics for whom this is a part of their practice, aside from saying (as Saryt points out) that it isn't KO.  But I am actively discouraging those who wish to make it part of their practice from attempting to do so without a clear sign from the deity in question that this is welcome and desired.  
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 04:53:30 pm by Tasedjebbastmut »
Tasedjebbast,
Daughter of Bast-Mut & Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Beloved of Yinepu-Wepwawet & Sekhmet-Hethert
Beloved of Set & Heru-wer Who Are the Bawy
Beloved of Aset-Serqet

Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2014, 04:53:11 pm »
Quote from: Tasedjebbastmut
Quote from: AddisonN


I don't recall saying anything about asking it to be universally accepted? I was just saying that invalidating someone's beliefs is not very fair, in my opinion. It's disrespectful.

*shrugs*


Perhaps.  But nowhere near as disrespectful as expecting Athena to show up naked or a Kemetic god to have sex with you just because that's how you want to roll despite established millennia old traditions about the culturally appropriate ways to interact with deities of various pantheons.  If these traditions are to change, I think that should be at Their discretion.  Not ours.  
 


First of all, did I ever say anything regarding who should approach who? No. I was saying that it is a decent thing to do to respect the practices of others. Not invalidate them because  of your own personal feelings and what you feel is right or wrong.

Also, in most of the godspouses/lovers I know, THEY were approached by the Gods in the first place. Even if they weren't, does it really offend you that terribly? Are they personally causing anyone harm with their practice?
Senebty,
Mehinefertemra (Nefertem-Ra fills me)
Son of Nefertem-Ra
Beloved of Set
Blog|Facebook|Tumblr

Offline Taji

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2014, 05:05:05 pm »
I think it would be helpful to frame the discussion within the context of the OP's question.  The copy function isn't cooperating on my iPad, but s/he specifically asked if it would be considered disrespectful to approach the Gods and ask Them for an intimate encounter,

Assuming s/he means an intimate encounter with Them, I would argue the answer is yes.  It would be disrespectful and inappropriate to approach the gods and ask Them for that.   Whether their doing so causes me any personal harm or offense isn't the issue.  I'm more concerned with them causing the gods offense and themselves harm.  Gods are powerful.  Of course our gods are also mostly kind and I don't think They would take too much offense from an innocent question from someone who wasn't aware of what the tradition was.  

Senebty,

Tajj
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 05:08:35 pm by Tasedjebbastmut »
Tasedjebbast,
Daughter of Bast-Mut & Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Beloved of Yinepu-Wepwawet & Sekhmet-Hethert
Beloved of Set & Heru-wer Who Are the Bawy
Beloved of Aset-Serqet

Offline Vaalea

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: 00
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2014, 05:21:10 pm »
Quote from: PhoenixJRising
I may be wrong here, but I think Vaalea meant it's not an intrinsic part of the religion (the way, for instance, making offerings or lighting incense is), because there's no documentation of it in antiquity and it's a minority of people in Kemetic practice today who incorporate it.


This, basically (thank you Phoenix).

What I've meant is there's a difference between what's intrinsic part of the religion, and what's personal practice, and to not mix and match the two especially in a discussion on a topic sensitive as this for so many reasons *might* be helpful.

~Merry
Vaalea, Shemsu em Kemet.
Sa Wepwawet-Ra her Bast, KO Sa Serqet.
Friend to Khepera and Sobek-Ra.

Tarot reader for Wepwawet & Serqet.

Offline Tatjasobekra

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2014, 05:22:19 pm »
 Disregarding specifically KO context, if the OP were to ask the Netjeru, wouldn't they (the Netjeru) answer yes or no? If they didn't want to, obviously they wouldn't do it, it's not like OP can actually force a deity to have a sexual relationship (at least, I don't think that's possible).

I don't see the harm in them asking. The Netjeru are busy and sometimes require us to straight up ask them for things. If they did get offended, they'd let the asker know.
Sat Sobek-Ra
Meryt Wadjet, Djehuty, Bast her Aset-Serqet

Mudang (korean shaman-priest) ; God Divination, Kut Ceremony, Prayerwork by appointment.
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Offline Taji

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2014, 06:34:57 pm »
I kinda think of it like this.  There are established cultural and social conventions for the type of behavior that's appropriate in the workplace.  If I find my boss attractive, there's nothing really stopping me from propositioning him.  He can always say no, right?  But is asking him appropriate?  Is it wise?   And that's for my human boss.  How much more so for a god?  

Senebty,

Taji.
Tasedjebbast,
Daughter of Bast-Mut & Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Beloved of Yinepu-Wepwawet & Sekhmet-Hethert
Beloved of Set & Heru-wer Who Are the Bawy
Beloved of Aset-Serqet

Offline Ra'awyserqet

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2014, 06:43:34 pm »
Quote from: RedFlower26
Hi! Is it considered disrespectful to ask the Gods for a certain...er...intimate encounter? I know other Pagan branches encourage that with their Deities, but how does Kemeticism view such encounters?


Em hotep! *henu*

In regards to your original question, I wouldn't say that other Pagan branches encourage it, so much as they do not discourage it. In regards to Heathenry/Northern Tradition/Asatru/etc, many of the different branches of this group (at least here in American) disagree with godspousing. They feel that it is not appropriate to be wed to and/or have an intimate relationship with a deity, no matter who that deity be. There is a branch within this group which accepts these sorts of relationships, but does not encourage it.

By encourage, I'm taking the meaning of them essentially stating "go out and find a deity to get busy with". I've yet to meet or see a serious godspouse who believes in or condones this; many of them actually discourage such a path. Their reasons are their own, and all you need to do to learn about why is do a google or bing search, the blogs tell all.

Within Kemetic paths, no it's not disrespectful for the gods to ask for an intimate encounter; as has been previously stated there are Kemetic godspouses. In my end of the world, I consider those people strong, strong enough to go against the flow and be what they are called to be by the gods. Netjeru or other deities, to me it doesn't really matter, what matters is the seriousness with which it is treated. If it's not someone messing around and being intentionally disrespectful of Kemetic paths, I see nothing wrong with their actions. I've researched into it a lot in the past, which has led me to this very strong support for people who are godspouses.

It might be disrespectful and/or inappropriate for you to proposition a deity, if they haven't already displayed an interest (much like propositioning random strangers). But then again, I'm not going to tell anyone what to do or not do because that's none of my business.

Is it KO theology? Does it fit within the KO? Is it something deemed appropriate by Hemet (aus)? No. No. No.
However, I have yet to see any oaths or ultimatums that state that a member of the KO, whether they be Shemsu or Remetj, must not engage in this sort of relationship.

Personally, I hope it stays that way. The KO takes up the majority of the presence of Kemetic paths (we seem to be the most vocal at least), and if the House stooped to rejecting any member who has had an intimate experience or has an intimate relationship with a Netjer, I wouldn't want to be a Shemsu anymore. Kemetic groups are small in number and we don't need to be ripping each other apart over theology.

Senebty,
Rawy
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 06:45:41 pm by Raawyserqet »
(They/them)

Sat Serqet-Aset her Nisut-bity Hekatawy | (aus), meryt Sekhmet-Mut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Heru-wer, her Hethert-Nut-as-Nehmet-Awai.

Fedw Diviner

Offline Nimaatitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2014, 06:47:44 pm »
It is clear that sex with Netjer is not an official KO practice. I read this question earlier and have been thinking about it a good bit this afternoon. Quite an interesting question. I have not read everything about Kemetic practice, but what I have read, I have never seen anything about people having sex with Netjer so that would lead me to believe that it wasn't done or if it was done, it was kept on the way down low (but I tend to lean more towards it wasn't done). I believe that it wasn't done because sex is a more base desire and when you have a more consciously aware civilization (such as the ancient Kemetians), sex is not that important and is not always on a person's mind and is not a very high priority (this is my opinion anyway).

So, would it be disrespectful? I would suppose it would depend on the approach and the reasoning. I don't think that it would necessarily be something wrong to do but the potential consequences should be considered heavily prior to making the request. I would tend to think that if a Netjer (or any other non-human entity) wanted sex from a human that Netjer (or entity) would make it known to the human. When looking at sex from a more energetic point of view, it is a huge exchange of energy between partners. It would make me question whether or not the human could truly and fully handle the energy of the Netjer (or entity) and why the Netjer (or entity) would want to give that much of him or herself to a human (and in the process take on the energy from the human). This of course, could lead down a whole different rabbit hole of thought and I guess I should stop here.

At any rate, I would say to know exactly why it is that you would want sex with a Netjer (or entity), what you hope to gain from it and contribute to it, and how you will handle the after effects of it. Then, ask the Netjer (or entity) directly about it to find the most appropriate answer. Based on what I've witnessed in the past, though, I would recommend against it. Sex has a way of getting in the way of things, even with those non-human entities.
Senebty,
Nima'at
Self-Care Mut Advocate

Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2014, 08:45:57 pm »
Thanks for all your responses! My original intent was to ask if it was appropriate to ask the Gods for sex.

Nima'at, your response was very interesting and helpful regarding the Energy Exchange. :)

Offline Ha'autmuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2014, 10:34:11 pm »
Hotep Rawy,

Thank you for your response here, particularly your last paragraph. After getting uncomfortable and having to withdraw from this discussion for a while, that helps put things in perspective. I was really struggling with my stance before, but I get a really strong "this is right" feeling from what you said, so I'm just going to say "ditto."

Senebty,

Phoenix
- Ha'aut

"Joy of My Mothers"
Son of Serqet and Hethert-Nut, beloved of Mut and Nehebkau.

Teach me to speak with their voices
Show me the way and I'll try again

Offline Tanebet

  • Rev Astrid - Ordained Clergy, Semer-Wati
  • Country: 00
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2014, 08:30:08 am »
Quote from: Devo

I personally don't understand why people get so quicked out over the possibility of having sexual and non-familiar relations with the gods. It's a thing, it's a documented thing in many cultures, and there are multiple Kemetics who have relationships with the NTRW that aren't quite familial. Some of which have sexual elements, some of which don't. Just depends on the specifics.
-Devo  


Each and every culture is different. What is acceptable and well documented in one culture might be unheard of in another culture. Or maybe it is even a taboo.
Personally I think it is important to respect cultural differences.
Tanebetheru "Heru's Lordship"
Sat Heru Sa Aset her Nisut (AUS), Meryt Ra-Heru-akhety her Heru-Behedety
Heri-Sesheta Heru-Sa-Aset

This is what I was born to: to live, to love, to know, to change and embrace the infinite.
Normandi Ellis: "Awakening Osiris"

Offline Bestekeni

  • Semer-Wati
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Country: ca
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2014, 10:02:13 am »
Kemetic Orthodoxy is not the be-all and end-all, nor is it a catch-all.  If you really feel the need to have imaginationsex with gods, maybe this isn't the right place for you... and that's totally okay.  It's not a value judgment.  It's just that if someone really feels that is a central part of their religious life, it would be better for them in the long run to find a more like-minded community.
Fedw diviner for Bes
𓃀𓎂𓀭𓏏𓎡𓈖𓁐
Sat Bes her Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Meryt Heru-wer her Amun-Ra her Bast

Offline Awetitu

  • Shemsu-Ankh
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2014, 01:58:27 pm »
Quote from: RedFlower26
Hi! Is it considered disrespectful to ask the Gods for a certain...er...intimate encounter? I know other Pagan branches encourage that with their Deities, but how does Kemeticism view such encounters?


OK, I want to make sure I'm not barking up the wrong tree here...are you asking if it's disrespectful to ask on of the Netjeru to have sex with you? Like intimate sex? Or casual sex? Or the toe-curling, sheet-tearing, throat-stripping good ol' roof-raising-screaming kind of sex?

I cannot speak for anyone else on the boards here, I can only speak to my own UPG on this subject, but as far as I'm concerned, seeing as my Names are my spiritual Family, my spiritual Fathers, and my spiritual Aunts and Uncles, my answer would be along the lines of "No.  Just no."

In my UPG asking the Names for something like that would be akin to seducing your father, mother, uncle, or aunt, hence my reply, and for the most part, some of the folk that I know here feel the same way. Again, I'm not speaking for the entirety of the faith or the Names here (that's Hemet(AUS)'s job), but as Tek said, if you believe that KO is about banging the brains out of your spiritual Fathers, Mothers, Aunts, and Uncles, then maybe this isn't the place for you.

Once you've developed a relationship with them in the context of KO, how you proceed from there is up to you, but based on the fact you're using a handle labelled as "Guest" I'm guessing you're testing the waters here, but as per my UPG, I'm going to say that it's just a little disrespectful to ask for the Names to have an intimate encounter with you.

Senebty!
Awetitu - aka Awi
Sa Sobek her Set, mery Heru-wer her Sekhmet-Hethert

Offline Taji

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: Gods and Intimacy?
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2014, 02:52:40 pm »
Another thing to be cautious of is making sure you really really know whom you're propositioning.  There are a lot of entities in the Unseen and not all of them are very nice, honest or have your best interests at heart.  And some of them like to mess with people sexually.  So if you put it out on the wire so to speak that you're hot for Heru, one of these entities would have absolutely no objection to showing up, claiming to be the God you seek, and messing with you.  Would I know the difference between legit Heru and some big netjeri pretending to be Heru?  It'd be tricky, I think.  

Just so not worth it.  I'd also have a high index of suspicion for a god propositioning me.  Because generally speaking, They're just not known to to do that.  They don't need to do that. Our theology speaks to us being their children and servants.  And people worry about the power differentials inherent in doing bosses, priests, those significantly older . . .  All valid concerns, reasons for not having intimate relationships with people in those roles that are positively dwarfed by the difference in power between a human and a god.  

So yeah.  Don't do it.  If you feel you need to do it and that it's an important part of your spiritual practice, this probably isn't your place.  And for the love of all that's good and holy, please be absolutely sure you know who you're dealing with.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Tasedjebbastmut »
Tasedjebbast,
Daughter of Bast-Mut & Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Beloved of Yinepu-Wepwawet & Sekhmet-Hethert
Beloved of Set & Heru-wer Who Are the Bawy
Beloved of Aset-Serqet

 


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