collapse collapse

* Donation Status

8%
Current donation status as of October 30, 2021 = $211.74 of $2,500 or 8%
Donate!

* User Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 43
  • Dot Hidden: 1
  • Dot Users: 1

There aren't any users online.

Author Topic: Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?  (Read 5647 times)

Offline Sonebiyinepu

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« on: March 26, 2016, 01:30:32 pm »
So I work with a bunch of Gods/Goddesses and these guys are my main ones currently, I'm not sure Hades will work with the others, ever since I started going more Kemetic He's been not around. What should I do?
"Yinepu heals me"
Child of Yinepu-Wepwawet
Beloved of Amun-Ra, Heru-Wer, Sokar-Wesir, and Sekhmet-Mut

Offline Temseniaset

  • Sema Kau Bak
  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2016, 02:14:55 pm »
Hotep:

Be patient he may just be giving you time to establish a relationship with Anpu, Bast, Ra, Set and Sobek.  When he feels that your relationships are where they are supposed to be he may return.  Or it could be he was a guide to the Kemetic Netjer and his part is now done.  Again be patient and enjoy establishing something new.
Senebty
Temseniaset,
Sat Aset Serqet
Meryt Wesir Sokar, Yinepu Wepwawet, Khepra, Heru Sa Aset, Ra
Fedw diviner

Offline Mesetibes

  • W'ab (priest)
  • Country: ca
Re: Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2016, 09:31:12 pm »
Em Hotep,

Maybe you should talk to Him about it? There could be several reasons as to why He's pulling back, and having a good grasp of Ancient Greek cultural practices, I have a few thoughts as to why. I can't make that call for Him though, and nor can I make that call for you.

Regardless, talk to Him about it.

Also, as an aside, Bast and Yinepu (Anubis) are known for bringing people here and then fading back to let the person do their own discovery. I'd keep that in mind as well.

Senebty!
Rev. Mesetibes
Sat Heqat, meryt Djehuti her Ptah her Heru-wer
Fedw Diviner
2011 Wep Ronpet Frog Princess/
W'abet Nekhen Sha'a Sha'at Imef

Offline Sekhepenaset

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2016, 09:31:33 pm »
Em hotep,

I have relationships with the Greek pantheon as well as the Kemetic one.

Possible problems may be if you venerate Kemetic Gods alongside Gods from other cultures?  Like, perhaps Haides doesn't want to be revered *next* to the other Gods you worship?  He may want His own space in your life that is separate from the Kemetic Gods. 

Otherwise, Haides may be taking a step back to let you develop these other relationships. 

In addition, Haides is a Chthonic God so, sometimes, the Chthonic/Underworld Gods are a bit quieter in approach.  He's a very busy God and is known for being a bit more subtle in His approach to His followers. 

Give Haides a place separate from the Kemetic Gods.  Make offerings to Him.  Pray to Him.  Even if you don't "feel" the connection, continue to do these things or ask Him to explain His distance and perhaps He will reveal it over time. 

hope this helps.

Senebty!
Senebty -
Sekhep

Sa Aset-Serqet
Mery Wesir her Bast

Offline Sonebiyinepu

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2016, 06:22:26 pm »
okay thanks! I think I'll try to find somewhere to move Hades shrine to so he may be separate from the Others
"Yinepu heals me"
Child of Yinepu-Wepwawet
Beloved of Amun-Ra, Heru-Wer, Sokar-Wesir, and Sekhmet-Mut

Offline Sekhepenaset

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2016, 06:38:19 pm »
okay thanks! I think I'll try to find somewhere to move Hades shrine to so he may be separate from the Others

No problem!

Coming from someone who practices the traditional household religion of the Hellenes, I wanted to give you some more pointers (because I failed to put them in my original post lol) that might help you attract Haides' attention. 

Chthonic Gods have Their altars erected close to the ground.  Like, for me personally, I've basically only used a swivel t.v. stand before as an altar space for Haides and Persephone. 

It is better to make offerings to Them at night.  DO NOT eat OR drink any offerings you give Them.  With Ouranic Gods like Zeus or Dionysus or Apollon, you can consume a bit of the offering but not with Chthonic Gods. 

When you pray to Haides, point your hands downwards towards the ground or floor and cup them a little bit.  Ancient Hellenes would sometimes bang on the ground a little bit to get the attention of the Underworld Gods. 

Even if you don't feel it, continue to pray and make offerings and see what happens.

Hopefully this will ease things up in your worship of Him and the Kemetic Gods!

Senebty! 
Senebty -
Sekhep

Sa Aset-Serqet
Mery Wesir her Bast

Offline Sonebiyinepu

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2016, 06:41:33 pm »
okay thanks! I think I'll try to find somewhere to move Hades shrine to so he may be separate from the Others

No problem!

Coming from someone who practices the traditional household religion of the Hellenes, I wanted to give you some more pointers (because I failed to put them in my original post lol) that might help you attract Haides' attention. 

Chthonic Gods have Their altars erected close to the ground.  Like, for me personally, I've basically only used a swivel t.v. stand before as an altar space for Haides and Persephone. 

It is better to make offerings to Them at night.  DO NOT eat OR drink any offerings you give Them.  With Ouranic Gods like Zeus or Dionysus or Apollon, you can consume a bit of the offering but not with Chthonic Gods. 

When you pray to Haides, point your hands downwards towards the ground or floor and cup them a little bit.  Ancient Hellenes would sometimes bang on the ground a little bit to get the attention of the Underworld Gods. 

Even if you don't feel it, continue to pray and make offerings and see what happens.

Hopefully this will ease things up in your worship of Him and the Kemetic Gods!

Senebty!

thanks! I will use all of these suggestions~
"Yinepu heals me"
Child of Yinepu-Wepwawet
Beloved of Amun-Ra, Heru-Wer, Sokar-Wesir, and Sekhmet-Mut

Offline Rayashi

  • W'ab (priest)
  • Country: it
Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2016, 08:11:37 pm »
No problem!

Coming from someone who practices the traditional household religion of the Hellenes, I wanted to give you some more pointers (because I failed to put them in my original post lol) that might help you attract Haides' attention. 

Chthonic Gods have Their altars erected close to the ground.  Like, for me personally, I've basically only used a swivel t.v. stand before as an altar space for Haides and Persephone. 

It is better to make offerings to Them at night.  DO NOT eat OR drink any offerings you give Them.  With Ouranic Gods like Zeus or Dionysus or Apollon, you can consume a bit of the offering but not with Chthonic Gods. 

When you pray to Haides, point your hands downwards towards the ground or floor and cup them a little bit.  Ancient Hellenes would sometimes bang on the ground a little bit to get the attention of the Underworld Gods. 

Even if you don't feel it, continue to pray and make offerings and see what happens.

Hopefully this will ease things up in your worship of Him and the Kemetic Gods!

Senebty!

Em hotep praisingnetjer,

Do you have any recommend sources that outline this further?

Senebty
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 08:13:22 pm by Rayashi »
Rayashi (Yashi) - "Ra calls me"
Sat Ra
Meryt Heru-sa-Aset, Wepwawet-Yinepu, Nut, Sekhmet-Hethert, Sokar-Wesir, her Min

Offline Sekhepenaset

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2016, 07:45:04 pm »
No problem!

Coming from someone who practices the traditional household religion of the Hellenes, I wanted to give you some more pointers (because I failed to put them in my original post lol) that might help you attract Haides' attention. 

Chthonic Gods have Their altars erected close to the ground.  Like, for me personally, I've basically only used a swivel t.v. stand before as an altar space for Haides and Persephone. 

It is better to make offerings to Them at night.  DO NOT eat OR drink any offerings you give Them.  With Ouranic Gods like Zeus or Dionysus or Apollon, you can consume a bit of the offering but not with Chthonic Gods. 

When you pray to Haides, point your hands downwards towards the ground or floor and cup them a little bit.  Ancient Hellenes would sometimes bang on the ground a little bit to get the attention of the Underworld Gods. 

Even if you don't feel it, continue to pray and make offerings and see what happens.

Hopefully this will ease things up in your worship of Him and the Kemetic Gods!

Senebty!

Em hotep praisingnetjer,

Do you have any recommend sources that outline this further?

Senebty

Em hotep Rayashi -henu-,

"Greek Religion" by Walter Burkert is THE authoritative text on ancient Greek religion.  Most of my answer to you will be based on my reading of that text and several other things I've read.  Unfortunately, I read an online, free copy of it a long time ago and it appears the link has been removed.

But if you were going to throw your money at anything, that would be THE book to buy on ancient Greek religion.  It explains just about everything.  Seriously, it's a fabulous book.  You probably could score a copy of it really cheap. 

My answer was based almost entirely on that book.  In addition to, "Mythology: Greek and Roman" by Thomas H. Carpenter and Robert J. Gula and another, titled, "Hellenic Polytheism: Household Worship Vol. 1" by the Labrys Polytheistic Community. 

Other works might include, Hesiod's Works and Days, Homer's Odyssey, Homer's Iliad, as well as "Greeks" by Scholastic.  In addition to art pieces and archaeological digs.   

But anyway, here are some online sources that might outline these ideas for you more quickly:

>Prayers/Libations to Chthonic Gods:
Baring The Aegis blog by Elani Temperance
http://baringtheaegis.blogspot.com/2015/03/how-to-pray-to-khthonic-gods.html 
^^(Elani discusses everything I've said above but only lists the Odyssey and Circe's teaching Odysseus the correct way of pouring libations to the dead as a source)

>Ancient Hellenic postures of prayer:
http://www.greek-gods.info/greek-gods-cult/

>Altars and Times for Chthonic Sacrifice
Greek Religion by Walter Burkert:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pSSRAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT201&lpg=PT201&dq=chthonic+gods+greek+religion+altar+sacrifice&source=bl&ots=WYn4i7je-F&sig=hLBw5WgNtDVphc0i4DThNeSyOME&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJoJeFwOLLAhWGmx4KHc_4BMIQ6AEIZDAP#v=onepage&q=chthonic%20gods%20greek%20religion%20altar%20sacrifice&f=false

(There are parts of the aforementioned text available online for free but unfortunately, they do not appear to have page numbers in the viewer version.

Beginning at, "whereas the festival for the gods begins at sunrise" down, it talks about the attitudes of the ancient Hellenes had towards ritual for the Ouranic Gods vs the Chthonic Gods.)

>Bonding to the Underworld/Dangers of Chthonic objects
The Rape of Persephone:
http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/HaidesPersephone1.html

>Hellenic perceptions of Chthonic Gods and Their powers
The American Journal of Philology: The Chthonic Gods of Greek Religion
http://www.jstor.org/stable/287716?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

>More on Chthonic altars and rituals
Ancient Greek Religion by Jon D. Mikalson
https://books.google.com/books?id=8o6xxlwbldcC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=chthonic+altars&source=bl&ots=K_vYN9mGnU&sig=Cq3n1tFsp39nzzisvxrxwJlPreM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj11Nip0-TLAhXMKx4KHcIWBFMQ6AEINDAG#v=onepage&q=chthonic%20altars&f=false

~~~~~~

As Elani points out, "Chthonic" means "subterranean", "earthly", or better yet, "in the Earth".  The ancient Hellenes would only use the inner earth/ground for two reasons, to bury their dead or to sow crops. 

Ouranic Gods may have Chthonic associations.  Here are a few examples:

Demeter because She is a Goddess of harvest, agriculture, and farming. 

Zeus is a God with Chthonic associations because lightning is absorbed by the ground.  More importantly, He is a God associated with the souls of human beings.  If I'm not mistaken, I also think that His epithet "Melikhios" has Chthonic associations.   

Hermes is another God with a Chthonic aspect.  Hermes is a psychopomp.  He takes the souls of the dead to the other side. 

Dionysus had a Chthonic aspect as well.  He descended into the Underworld to retrieve his mother Semele and returned.

Some sources say Dionysus was not a son of Zeus and Semele but the son of Zeus and Persephone.  Which would give Him Chthonic aspects. 

Someone said that, "Hades is Dionysus".  There is an interesting theory that speculates that Dionysus took Ariadne of Crete as His wife because Ariadne was the Minoan version of Persephone and Dionysus was, in their minds, Haides. 

I know that in Sparta, Aphrodite was revered as having additional dominion over war and over the bodies of those who died during war.  I suppose, by inference, She might take on a Chthonic aspect but in the mainstream Hellenic religion, She did not have any Chthonic association.   

But especially for this discussion, I am mostly referring to the Gods of the Underworld when I speak of Chthonic Gods. 

--For this reason, it was considered ghastly to call upon Gods who were Chthonic or to call upon Gods who had Chthonic aspects....in Their Chthonic aspects. 

Ancient Hellenes only called upon Chthonic Gods to purify themselves of the miasma (pollution) that death brought on the oikos (household) or to seek vengeance on someone they despised (by using the katadesmoi, the curse tablets). 

There wasn't a lot of worship of Them out of adoration because most Hellenes feared the Chthonic Gods, especially of the Underworld, too much to venerate Them as They are in today's world. 

To call upon Them was to invite Their attention.  To call upon a Chthonic God was to invoke the powers of the grave and death.  Most ancient Hellenes would not speak Haides' name for a fear He would hear it and come for you.

--If calling Haides' name was bad enough, eating/drinking a Chthonic offering was to bind you to the Underworld. 

In the mythical rape of Persephone, Persephone eats a couple of pomegranate seeds and unknowingly binds Herself to Haides' domain.  But She was a Goddess so it didn't kill Her, it only expanded Her domain.  Still, She was required to spend the fall and winter months with Haides'. 

In offerings to Ouranic Gods, particularly animal sacrifice, the offering would be shared amongst the audience because with Ouranic/Heavenly deities, you wanted to establish "kharis" with Them, a reciprocal relationship of give-and-take.  As such, during the sacrifice, the mortal audience would take a portion of whatever was given to cement the bond between Gods and men.  Most of the meat the ancient Hellenes ate came from their religious ceremonies (that I know is cited in Burkert's book).

But with Chthonic Gods, the ancient Hellenes would slaughter the animal in a pit or on an altar close to the ground and they would not eat any of it.  They would more commonly burn the dead animal or bury it.  The relationship that occurred between the Chthonic Gods and mortal men was mostly a one-time transaction.  There wasn't much of a give-and-take otherwise. 

Hence with sacrifices to Chthonic Gods, you shouldn't eat whatever you offer Them.  From what I've heard, some people might offer wine to a Chthonic God and they won't even open the bottle.  They bury it, unopened.  Most traditional Hellenics don't like to touch the offerings they make to a Chthonic God.  A communion with the powers of the dead is not something ancient Hellenes celebrated.   

--The ancient Hellenes would direct their hands towards the abode of the deity to get Their attention.  If you were addressing Zeus, you might hold your hands up towards the sky.  If you were addressing Poseidon or another aquatic deity, you would point your hands towards a body of water.  If you were addressing Haides or Persephone, you would move your hands downward to face the ground. 

The "posture of adoration" can be seen in their artworks.  For example, this sculpture right here:

http://www.homoerotimuseum.net/eur/eur07/405.html

And from the Household Worship Vol 1 book, they paraphase on pages 70 and 71, a section from Burkert's book:

"In both hymn and prayer, the posture of the worshippers continues to be the standing position with the hands outstretched towards the heavens when invoking the Heavenly Gods.

The hands and arms point downwards towards the earth with the Khthonian gods (of the earth and underworld).  With other Gods, the arms and hands point in the direction of the related domain.

Although there are examples of people kneeling during prayer in ancient times, it was uncommon (Burkert 1997)."

Herodotus once had this to say, "...the Persians and the Egyptians worshipped Gods and kings by kneeling on the ground leaning like four-legged dogs while the Hellenes slightly bent the knee and body and, after kissing their hand, they touched with it the item of their devotion". 

From Homer's Odyssey Chapter 9, verse 528, in the chapter which is so dubbed, "Outstretched Hands", it is written, "So I spoke, and he then prayed to the lord Poseidon, stretching out both his hands to the starry heavens: 'Dark-haired Poseidon, earth-enfolder..."

From Homer's Iliad, III. 1.447-452, in the passage titled, "Liftening The Arms", "....but they made haste to set the holy hecatomb in array for the god around the well-built altar, and they washed their hands and took up the barley grains.  Then Khryses lifted up his hands prayed aloud: "Hear me, God of the Silver Bow, who stands over Khryse...."  (Sounds like Khrsyes was making an offering/prayer to Apollon - which would make sense since he was the priest to Apollon in Troy) 

And again from Homer's Iliad, III. 15. 368-377, there is a passage that goes, "...lifting up their hands to all the Gods, they each offered fervent prayers; and hardest of all prayed Nestor of Gerenia, the warder of the Achaeans, stretching for his two hands to the starry heavens: "O' Father Zeus, if ever any one of us men in wheat-bearing Argos burned to thee fat thigh-pieces of bull or of ram with the prayer that he might return, and thou didst promise and nod thy head thereto, be thou now mindful of these things, and ward us [from them], O' Olympian God..."

From Plutarch's "Life of Alexander" 19.8.3, "...calling on the gods and raising arms to the heavens..."

--As for WHY the rituals for the Chthonic Gods took place at night or why the animal sacrifices were black....I'm not sure.  I don't think that was ever covered in Burkert's book or anything else I've ever read.  All it states are specifics.   

My best guess, which is only my individual pondering, has to do with what I know about Haides' domain and the ancient Hellenic calendar. 

Haides' kingdom is described by many sources as being a dark, gloomy place.  Most mortals would be confined to a gloomy afterlife in the Fields of Asphodel, where we would drink from the waters of the river Lethe and forget our mortal existence entirely. 

In addition, the Underworld Gods who are "in the Earth", are just that - in the Earth.  They do not see the Sun and They are not touched by the sunlight. 

And like our Kemetic calendar, the ancient Hellenic calendar was lunar-based.  A lunar month had 30 days and three, 10 day weeks called, "decamerons". 

The 3rd and final week was called, "Phthinontos" which means, "waning".  It was the week leading up to the Noumenia celebrations and like the name suggests, it indicated a waning moon.  The light of the moon was diminished and it was considered a dangerous time to be outside after dusk.  The days leading up to the Deipnon and Noumenia celebrations were considered "inauspicious" for sacrifice or soothsaying. 

I believe these distinctions between inauspicious and auspicious days are covered in Hesiods' Works and Days.  But I drew most of these distinctions and the Hellenic Calendar from the Household Worship book by the Labrys Community. 

It's possible the ancient Hellenes held their Chthonic rituals at night and sacrificed black-colored animals because of the associations with the Chthonic realm and its' Gods.  Chthonic Gods, other than Persephone and maybe Hekate, never see the light of the Sun.  Haides' domain is dark and gloomy.  Holding a Chthonic ritual at night and using a dark-colored animal mimics Haides' domain. 

Or, it could be because of the implied danger of night, the dark, and Haides' domain.  Or both/neither.  But that is my best guess.

Was this sufficient for you? 

Senebty
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 12:48:30 pm by praisingnetjer »
Senebty -
Sekhep

Sa Aset-Serqet
Mery Wesir her Bast

Offline Rayashi

  • W'ab (priest)
  • Country: it
Re: Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2016, 08:00:27 pm »
You're amazing!  I asked for my husband and I'm sure he'll be thrilled with the response!  Thank you deeply.
Rayashi (Yashi) - "Ra calls me"
Sat Ra
Meryt Heru-sa-Aset, Wepwawet-Yinepu, Nut, Sekhmet-Hethert, Sokar-Wesir, her Min

Offline Sekhepenaset

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Anup, Bast, Re, Sobek, Set, and Hades?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2016, 09:13:18 am »
Thank you!  I'm glad you enjoyed it and I hope your husband finds it useful.   

I forgot to mention, it was also custom that when making libations to the Ouranic Gods, you would -slowly- pour the water out of the jug, cup, or whatever it was you were using. 

In addition, when pouring libations to the Chthonic Gods or the dead, you dump the libation out quickly.  The Chthonic formula goes: make the offering, get rid of it. 

And despite being a Chthonic Goddess, Persephone was a widely venerated Goddess in ancient Greece.

This is because of the Eleusinian Mystery Cult.  This agricultural religion was ANCIENT.  I think it was one of the primary religious groups in pre-Classical Greece (but I could be mistaken).  Either way, it was an OLD religion.  Ye olde religion, for sure.

Demeter and Persephone were the spiritual center of the cult and They are completely Hellenic Goddesses.  Whereas, Gods like Ares or Hekate are foreign deities borrowed (at least that's what we can tell by their sacrifices), Demeter and Persephone were not. 

They were the Goddesses who brought increase to the Earth and for that reason, Persephone was venerated.  Some people say Persephone (or Kore, as She is sometimes called) is merely an attribute of Demeter but others insist They are mother and daughter. 

Hekate had strong Chthonic associations as well (even though She had dominion over Earth, Sea, AND Sky) but was also a widely venerated Goddess.  Which was strange because She was a Titan.  Titan-Worship definitely occurred in Ancient Greece but the level of esteem She was held in as a Titan is pretty strange.  She took an interest in the fortunes of mortals but still, Her sacrifices were largely Chthonic in style.   

And on the 3rd Decameron, Phthinontos, it was considered dangerous to be outside when the light of the moon was waning because you couldn't see your way or see any potential dangers. 

This may be part of the reason why on the night of the dark moon, the ancient Hellenes stayed inside and claimed the night was sacred to Hekate because She is the Queen of the Night.  It whets the imagination when Hellenics say She carried the restless dead, those who have been unjustly murdered, with Her on Deipnon night.  Leaves a lot of room open for speculation...

While it is traditional to not worship any of the Chthonic deities, people still do it.  I've also known people who have committed the gravest sin and eaten an offering they made to a Chthonic God....and they're still alive. 

In modern times, Haides has gotten a following.  Persephone too.  And Hekate is extremely popular.  Her followers are literally everywhere (as I'm sure every Pagan knows).   

Senebty! 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 09:27:31 am by praisingnetjer »
Senebty -
Sekhep

Sa Aset-Serqet
Mery Wesir her Bast

 


* Board Stats

  • stats Total Members: 3496
  • stats Total Posts: 304033
  • stats Total Topics: 21100
  • stats Total Categories: 9
  • stats Total Boards: 124
  • stats Most Online: 955
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal