collapse collapse

* User Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 75
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

Author Topic: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?  (Read 2810 times)

Offline Teritui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« on: May 28, 2017, 11:00:27 pm »
Hello all,

I've been mulling something over lately, and I'm wondering: are the gods' love truly unconditional? For example, if someone did something/s worthy of getting their heart devoured by Ammit, would the gods still love them?

I guess I'm far from being the worst person ever and I am trying to better myself, but sometimes I worry that I'm not improving fast enough or trying hard enough/sincerely enough to change, and that eventually the gods will turn away from me.

What do you guys think?
Teritui: I respect my Two Fathers
Daughter of: Ptah-Sokar-Wesir and Heru-wer
Beloved of: Sekhmet-Hethert and Set

Offline Riley.rifle

  • Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017, 12:30:55 am »
Em hotep,
While there is always room for improvement, I don't think anyone is beyond repentance. There is always time to change your ways and do what is in ma'at. Or, at least, that's what I believe. Mind you, I don't mean saying sorry and continuing the behavior. I mean making sincere efforts to do better.
Senebty,
Leaha
🙌☀
Dua Ra!
Dua Netjer!
~_^

Offline Wepwyitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 08:04:09 am »
I think the best thing you can do is to forgive yourself. This will give you strength to move one and make up for your mistakes. Conscience is a good thing, toxic guilt - not. If you are trying to be better, and doing something to reach the goal, it already counts.
Try asking the gods for guidance, in this way you'll make sure you are doing the right things and keep in touch with them.
Child of Sokar-Wesir and Ra-Heruakhety
Beloved of Bast and Set.

Offline EMECOR

  • Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 12:33:25 am »
This is something I've thought about a lot too. It's been difficult for me to interpret the Names as anything but vengeful having been raised in a culture that promoted the Catholic interpretation of the Christian god. When that's your first experience with a deity, it's hard to shake.

In my experience, it depends on what Name you interact with. Bast has assured me that She'll always be watching no matter how much I try to turn away from Her and Ma'at. By contrast, my conversations with some followers of Aset suggest She may not be as forgiving, or that She's more of a tough love type.

But ultimately, I feel like we need to trust the Names in order to know what They want from us. If atonement is necessary for an action, I would hope They would give us that opportunity.

Offline Khamheru

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 10:37:27 am »
Em hotep everyone.

I do not believe Netjer enjoy to see their children being eaten by Ammit and having their kau destroyed, and neither the gods enjoy to see us in despair, or having a fear-based life avoiding to not make mistakes. We make mistakes because we are not perfect, and Netjer knows about it, and they still loves us. Even Netjer isn't perfect. When mistakes are made with intention, that's something different. But with intention or not, isfet can occur, and fortunately we have the choice to aim the righteousness everyday in every action. The gods loves us more than we think, but we just can't see it clearly.
Heru-wer
Aset & Wesir & Set

Offline Neshnytyinepu

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2017, 11:01:57 am »
Re: doing something bad enough to have one's heart devoured by Ammit-- the line from American Gods comes to mind:

"It was a really heavy feather. We had it made special. You had to be pretty damn evil to tip the scales on that baby."
--Mr. Jacquel/Yinepu, in American Gods

That's always been my understanding of my Father, coupled with the fact that, so far as I know, Ammit only ever devoured the specific personality of that lifetime. Not the soul, the essence of the entire person through all its lifetimes.

As far as unconditional love, I don't know if the ancient Kemetics understood the Netjer to have that quality for them or not. We do have the myths of Ra sending Sekhmet to wipe out humanity when humanity had strayed from what Ra desired for them, but Ra feel into grief and dismay upon seeing the destruction Sekhmet brought upon His children and called Her off. Very much a parent getting frustrating and going overboard with attempted discipline, before realizing that this was not the answer.

As someone also raised Catholic, I think of the ways in which Jesus' message of unconditional love was later corrupted by the mortal believers. I believe that the Netjer love us unconditionally, but that like any parent, They have hopes and expectations of us. Unlike mortal parents however, Their love is in fact unconditional and does not disappear if we behave in ways They find disappointing. Life arranges itself to give us infinite possibilities to do better, and the Netjer's patience will always have Them waiting for us. Individual Names might display this love and patience in different ways, but it never runs out for the Netjer.
Neshnyt "Yinepu's Storm"
𓃤
Sa Yinepu, mery Nut her Set her Nebt-het
they/them pronouns please
Self-Care Yinepu Advocate

Offline Padememheru

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 12:51:26 pm »
Em Hotep Cinder.  This is something that I have pondered over recently as well.  But I've always that the gods love has always and will always be unconditional.  They may not like what we are doing sometimes, but They still love us no matter what, just like with our mortal parents.  They may be disappointed or cannot understand the things that we do that go against their beliefs and such, but they will (in most cases anyway) continue to love us no matter what.  And for me the same applies to the gods.  Like Neshynityinepu quoted from American Gods (which is an excellent show representing the gods, especially Yinepu), the feather was really rather heavy and one had to be even heavier for them to be eaten by Ammit.  The Gods just have Their own unique ways of showing Their love towards us, even if we can't always see it right away. 
"When you do things right people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama's "Godfellas"

Padememheru ~The One Mentioned by Heru~
Sa Heru-sa-Aset (or Heru-Nedjitef)
Mery Set, Aset-Serqet, his Nut

Offline Salqu

  • Beginner
  • Country: nz
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2017, 12:42:38 pm »
The thought that their love might not be unconditional scares me very deeply...

Offline A'Aqytsekhmet

  • Rev. A'aqyt - Ordained Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2017, 03:38:37 pm »
I think we as human beings tend to over complicate things very easily.
Love is such a deep, primal feeling, that we tend to treat it in a variety of ways. Analyzing it and picking through it, forgetting about it or taking it for granted. These are very human things to do. I don't think they are things the gods tend to do with it. Now here is my thought...

All of creation is an act of love. Sometimes tough but overall expressing an awesome amount of love. Ma'at is the world, is creation, is a part of each experience in our lives. Ma'at is Order. Order is not always clean, light, or tidy. But it is essential to all that we are.

If we, as people and individuals, are a blank canvas at the start of our lives how might we create something out of nothing? As people we live. And with each light, happy experience there is a new stroke of color to the canvas. And how do we add depth to our painting? We process and undergo dark times too. So that new darker shades of paint are placed on our lives. I think we all should try our hardest to rise out of our dark times, process them, and heal from them. But they help us create the masterpiece that become our lives. And that is part of the creative process. And creation is love.

"Creation was born of love. Creation is the love of the creators for the created.
This love is in your being. This love will never leave you"

From the Aset Oracle last Wep Ronpet (link below)


We are who we are because of our experiences within Creation, within Ma'at, and that in itself is the most unique and vital expression of love from the gods. They give us both the light and dark colors to paint with, as long as we don't aim to cover our lives in black paint I think we will be fine.

If you have not read the Oracle from last year, i definitely would. It was made public on a blog in august last year.
Aset Oracle Year 24
Sat Sekhmet-Nebetuu meryt Sobek-Ra, Yinepu, Nebthet, Nefertem, Wenut, Sokar-Wesir
Nekhen Iakhu Ihy Neferu Khau
Fedw Diviner  -  Shrine Image Service available  -  Self-Care Sekhmet Advocate
Zazzle Shop - Patreon[

Offline Sekhepenaset

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2017, 05:48:59 pm »
Personally, I don't think people are as good as they think they are.  You contribute to a lot of evils without intending to and you're largely unaware of them because everyone else does them.  I don't believe that the nature of humans is good or evil.  I think human nature is naturally in flux and most of us do what is "good" or socially acceptable because it will somehow benefit us. 

It also depends on how you define "love".  I don't believe every Netjer likes me but I think They accept the fact that we're not perfect and that we're going to make mistakes.  It's in our nature to change.  Even when you remove the major stuffs, we're still capable of contributing to Isfet.  But it makes sense for Them to want the best for every person so Ma'at continues.  Self-hatred just largely seems to limit the better things someone could do because they're torn alive by their disdain for themselves for whatever reason.   

But if you believe Their love is unconditional, you have to believe They give it to every person.  Even people who do terrible things intentionally.

The Netjeru were worshiped by thousands of people in antiquity.  Moral codes were different back then.  They did things we condemn now.  These people may have done terrible things considered acceptable by humans then but the Netjeru still spoke with them.  They still accepted their worship.

But long story short, I think the Netjeru are accepting of our general nature and can appreciate the better parts of us in light of what we've done.  They've had a lot of practice.  They accept the nature of the people eaten by Ammit but acknowledge that Isfet cannot be given more sway over the world.     
Senebty -
Sekhep

Sa Aset-Serqet
Mery Wesir her Bast

Offline Tjemsy

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2017, 11:33:04 am »
Your gods won't turn from you, Cinder. They understand that we're not perfect. Sometimes I think that way, too, that I'm not a Good Enough Devotee, but I know they don't think that way, so I'm kind of fighting back against it. Thinking you're not good enough is a sort of bad heka, isn't it? Like you're bringing it into being. Sometimes that helps me, not in a self-guilting way, but like they're saying "Don't even plant those seeds in yourself. Don't let them grow."

I don't think all Netjer like me or are personally invested in my life, nevermind all gods. But those that are, they will stay. I think they see something in us that we can't, even when we mess up.

When I think about how the gods can love someone who willingly, knowingly does horrible things, it makes my head spin. I can't divorce myself from my human moral standards, so I can't explain how they love people who (intentionally) do horrible things. But I think they can, and they do.
Tjemsy - "Two Red Ones"

Sat Sekhmet her Set
Meryt Heru-wer, Bast, Wepwawet, Taweret, Nebthet,
 & Nefertem-Imhotep

Offline Saheru

  • Country: au
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2017, 01:55:03 pm »
I remember after Wesir first appeared to me in a rather amazing experience at the local Egyptian Exhibition I asked him if there was anything I needed to do specifically to earn his love. His response was, point blank, no.

They love us for no other reason than they can. Do they want us to learn about ourselves, learn from our mistakes and improve the way we handle ourselves in life? Yes, of course. But they love us regardless of whether or not we actively seek improvement.

I won't lie, I've had Wesir tell me off once... when I was being disrespectful (joking around after a few drinks). But that wasn't because he suddenly hated me, if anything it was because he loved me, and respect works both ways. That was his lesson.

His message to me was "I don't mind a joke... but you crossed a line and I need you to apologise."

And when, like the petulant child I was at the time, whined... he kept me stuck on my knees, in the middle of the car-park, until I apologised. Once I did that (and meant it), he let me up. He reminded me afterwards that he doesn't like having to tell me off, but he will do so if the situation demands.

But they do love us, probably more than we can fathom. And I agree, coming from a very Christian-centric idea of deity does make it difficult to accept that maybe, just maybe, the deities/names, love us as much (more I believe) as we love them. 
"You and I together are a single creation. Neither death nor spite nor fear nor ignorance stops my love for you..." - Hymn to Wesir from Awakening Osiris: The Egyptian Book of the Dead by Normandi Ellis.

Offline Gleb

  • Remetj
  • Country: 00
Re: The Gods' Love: Unconditional?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2017, 06:46:05 am »
I agree with what was said earlier. There is always room for improvement and one has to be totally evil to be devoured by the ammut. I think... it depends on the balance between our good deeds and the bad.

While answering to the thread, I remembered to what the Cana'anian priest said to Moses in Prince of Egypt - "You must look at your eyes through Heaven's eyes". Every deed of ours has consequences so maybe in some cases, a bad deed can actually lead to positive results.

Of course it's just my opinion. One thing I AM sure of - the Neteru look at the whole history when they judge a person. They look at how the person's deeds affected the whole world. Sometimes the deceased person might not be aware of the consequences of their own actions and falsely deem themselves evil. The Neteru's view is much broader and a lot forgiving.

We all make mistakes, there is no such thing as perfect and the ancient Egyptians knew this. Do your best, try to develop your potential to the fullest, don't be harsh on yourself and everything will be alright.


EDITED:

Also remember that you're the expression of much higher than yourself. We're all works in progress, in my opinion. If you didn't make the mistakes you did in the past, you would NOT be here today to talk about it. You'd not make the same PROGRESS as a person. You would not grow the same way you did. Mistakes build you and help you grow. Don't be ashamed in yourself and don't think of yourself so harshly.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 06:47:44 am by Gleb »
Senebty,
Gleb

 


* Board Stats

  • stats Total Members: 2937
  • stats Total Posts: 286250
  • stats Total Topics: 19411
  • stats Total Categories: 8
  • stats Total Boards: 110
  • stats Most Online: 217
anything