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Author Topic: What's the Difference? (if any)  (Read 3129 times)

Offline Temimensenu

  • Shemsu
  • Country: gb
What's the Difference? (if any)
« on: August 15, 2017, 12:19:14 pm »
So, reading through here I see people talking about formal and informal worship, and I'm curious.

First, you have the Senut shrine which I would imagine is the daily formal worship. But then people talk about informal shrines, and I wonder if they're used one and the same, or if you have to have two differing shrines for both formal and informal worship.

Also, what does 'informal worship' really emcompass? Does it count if you just sit there talking to them in your head?
Temi

Son of Bast and Sobek

Beloved of Sekhmet-Hethert, Amun, and Yinepu-Wepwawet

Offline Teritui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2017, 01:36:10 pm »
So, reading through here I see people talking about formal and informal worship, and I'm curious.

First, you have the Senut shrine which I would imagine is the daily formal worship. But then people talk about informal shrines, and I wonder if they're used one and the same, or if you have to have two differing shrines for both formal and informal worship.

Also, what does 'informal worship' really emcompass? Does it count if you just sit there talking to them in your head?

Well, I would guess that informal worship would vary wildly from practitioner to practitioner. I'm pretty sure that the KO "thing" is to have at least a dedicated shrine for "formal" (Senut) practice if one is a Remetj and above, but I don't think that there are any rules/recommendations for informal practice.

For myself personally, I have a shrine for Senut and an altar for my informal practice. I reserve my Senut shrine for Senut only, and all other aspects of my practice go to my informal altar. And I think anything you want to could "count", talking to Netjeru in your head included :)

My informal altar has most (though not all) of the votive offerings I've given to the Netjeru, since my shrine doesn't have enough space for everything to be laid out and I like seeing everything out in the open. It's also where I do non-Senut related rites and offerings, and where I stand and say most of my informal prayers and hymns. It's sort of a catch-all for non Senut stuff.
Teritui: I respect my Two Fathers
Daughter of: Ptah-Sokar-Wesir and Heru-wer
Beloved of: Sekhmet-Hethert and Set

Offline Awibemhethert

  • Rev Ellen, Ordained Priest - Web Assistant
  • Administrator
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  • Country: us
What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2017, 01:48:28 pm »
Post removed for inaccuracy. Please see Reverend Sobeq's post below!

Thanks,

Ibi
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 03:21:58 am by Awibemhethert »
Rev Awibemhethert
Sat Hethert-Sekhmet
meryt Wesir

Self-Care Hethert Keeper

Offline Temimensenu

  • Shemsu
  • Country: gb
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2017, 01:57:02 pm »
Cinder - Ah, brilliant, thank you for your reply, even though individually personal it still helps by far.

I wasn't too sure if there were any rules to stick by regarding shrines and/or worship aside from what I've read about the Senut.

Awibemhethert - Having one shrine serving both functions makes the most sense to me, and when I think about it I do feel it'd be the right way to go. Of course, over time this may change, maybe if even I got more physical space as well, but it feels correct to be using one shrine for both functions in the here and now.

I'm not involved in any (other) religion so me doing any other kind of worship wouldn't be an issue, heh.
Temi

Son of Bast and Sobek

Beloved of Sekhmet-Hethert, Amun, and Yinepu-Wepwawet

Offline Tamiwi

  • Rev Danielle, Ordained Priest
  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2017, 02:05:54 pm »
Em Hotep,

Everyone was very on point with the formality of shrines. Formal shrines are Senut shrines and state shrines, but to me they include sacred areas reserved to one function alone: serving Netjer. I have a separate shelf where offerings are made, so that too would be formal. I have one for my Akhu and one for my beloveds, which is also dedicated entirely to them.

If the offering table wasn't an extension of the shrine, it could be considered informal I suppose. It's my personal opinion that anything that serves a duel function while also housing portions of worship could be informal; but it's hard to pinpoint that down to a space. If we view these spaces and worship in a different way than we do our mundane informal lives, then I feel they earn a sense of honor and formality by themselves.

Instead, informal worship to me means moments taken in our day to observe Netjer's creations; or doing things like a walk or working out or creating. We aren't in a sacred space physically, even if we are mentally; and in that way it could be informal (without the words, purity requirements or space).
W'abet Nekhen Miu Wer
Sat Bast her Ra her Hekatawy I (AUS)
*Meryt Hethert-Sekhmet her Heru-Sa-Aset*
Fedw Diviner | Heri-sesheta Bast

Offline Khamheru

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 04:38:45 pm »
Em hotep!

If it helps, I just have one shrine that's dedicated to Senut only. But it doesn't mean I couldn't pray there informally, but it have purity requirements.

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Heru-wer
Aset & Wesir & Set

Offline Khenneferitw

  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2017, 11:04:09 pm »
I feel like there are two kinds of formal. Anything that is considered "State," that is a rite that has been approved by the Nisut (AUS!) to follow the forms and standards set down by our Akhu, is automatically formal. The Priest's Rite, Senut, the Dua that we celebrate each week, and other holiday rites the priesthood put together are formal/State.

Some rites/heka that are developed in one's personal practice can be formal. The knot magic I worked for turning the dangers of the year was absolutely formal - I spent two hours before the shrine praying as I created my amulets! Others are less so - I wear certain types of clothing as a heka to associate me with Ptah-as-Creator, and this is not formal at all.

My informal tends to be like Tamiwi's - the small things that happen outside of ritual space; praying for purity and renewal while I watch the sunrise, cursing the evils of the day under my feet while I take a walk, seeing the beauty of Ptah-Sokar in my local brook.

I currently only have two shrine spaces (my senut shrine and my akhu shrine). I do informal and formal things at both places.

Hope this was helpful!
Khenne | they/them
Child of Ptah-Sokar, Wepwawet, & (Hekatawy-Alexandros)|
Beloved of Bast, Sekhmet, & Set
Fedw diviner | Sau apprentice | Boston Fellowship Coordinator

Offline Sobeqsenu

  • Rev. Danielle - Ordained Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2017, 04:47:40 pm »
Em hotep,

What each person considers formal vs. informal is going to vary widely. However, there is a clear distinction between "State" rituals (things like Senut, or rituals that Hemet (AUS) provides for holidays) and "personal" worship (prayers and incense lighting of any other kind, offerings of any other kind, heka of any other kind). Many people will describe this distinction as "formal vs. informal" as well. For these purposes you will want a shrine that you use only when you have purified yourself ritually, and one you can use under other conditions.

Senebty,
Sobeq
Priest of Wepwawet and Sekhmet-Mut
Beloved of Bast, Nut, Khonsu & Nebt-het
Heri-sesheta Wepwawet | Fedw Diviner
revdgallo@kemet.org

Offline KhaiPtah

  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2017, 06:51:04 pm »
Hotep.

I have 2 separate shrines.  My formal Bathe before spend a while sitting in quiet contemplation and communing with my father one.

Then i have a little informal one that sits on a shelf over the Anvil in my work shop.

This one gets a quick henu and a prayer to him to stop me laminating my thumb to the anvil with a 6pound hammer.

Hope this helps

Khai
The Shadows of apathetic silence dim the Light of righteous anger Ptah - 8/21/05

Fundraising Liaison
Sa her Shemsu-Ankh Ptah
Mery Sekhmet-HetHert Mery Bast

Online Tjemsy

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 07:13:34 pm »
Em hotep <3

Some people have Senut shrines and separate "informal" shrines for purity reasons. If purity is an issue, one might use the informal shrine to avoid needing to repurify the Senut shrine.

Also, there is no Size Requirement for these. Senut shrines don't need to be bigger or more elaborate than informal shrines. And informal shrines, true to their name, can be decorated however you wish. I have also seen and heard of many an informal shrine that does not serve as a place of worship in the same way that one's Senut shrine might. There are desktop shrines and workplace shrines, and shrines scattered throughout the home. Sometimes these are used more as visual reminders of Netjer's presence in our lives than places of prayer.
Tjemsy - "Two Red Ones"

Sat Sekhmet her Set
Meryt Heru-wer, Bast, Wepwawet, Taweret, Nebthet,
 & Nefertem-Imhotep

Offline Awibemhethert

  • Rev Ellen, Ordained Priest - Web Assistant
  • Administrator
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  • Country: us
What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2017, 03:16:05 am »
Wow!!!! So glad this topic came up!!!

Through this information, I learned that, however it got that way aside, I've been doing this wrong!!!

This is a very good thing to know.  Removing my comment above because inaccurate. Pay attention to Rev. Sobeq's post. Thanks for everyone's comments.


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« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 03:23:00 am by Awibemhethert »
Rev Awibemhethert
Sat Hethert-Sekhmet
meryt Wesir

Self-Care Hethert Keeper

Offline Temimensenu

  • Shemsu
  • Country: gb
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2017, 12:47:25 pm »
Thank you for your answers, it has helped to see it from differing angles.

Although now I have a similar question, mainly regarding akhu shrines - somewhere I heard that some use a Senut shrine for this purpose, whereas some have a separate akhu shrine. But then, if you don't/aren't meant to take back the offerings to the akhu, if they're on the same shrine space do you then have separate containers for libation/offering?
Temi

Son of Bast and Sobek

Beloved of Sekhmet-Hethert, Amun, and Yinepu-Wepwawet

Offline Awibemhethert

  • Rev Ellen, Ordained Priest - Web Assistant
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Country: us
What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2017, 03:05:38 pm »
The Akhu shrine should be separated from the Senut shrine. If it is on the same surface or in the same cabinet, put all the Akhu on one side separated by a little space. And yes, you need separate items for the Akhu, for their offerings.


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Rev Awibemhethert
Sat Hethert-Sekhmet
meryt Wesir

Self-Care Hethert Keeper

Online Tjemsy

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2017, 04:23:56 pm »
The Akhu shrine should be separated from the Senut shrine. If it is on the same surface or in the same cabinet, put all the Akhu on one side separated by a little space. And yes, you need separate items for the Akhu, for their offerings.


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Some people also use shelves, with one shelf for Senut, and another for the Akhu. In this way, they can be in the same "area," but they have their own distinct spaces.
Tjemsy - "Two Red Ones"

Sat Sekhmet her Set
Meryt Heru-wer, Bast, Wepwawet, Taweret, Nebthet,
 & Nefertem-Imhotep

Offline Vincent

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: de
Re: What's the Difference? (if any)
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2017, 08:19:30 pm »
The Akhu shrine should be separated from the Senut shrine. If it is on the same surface or in the same cabinet, put all the Akhu on one side separated by a little space. And yes, you need separate items for the Akhu, for their offerings.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Some people also use shelves, with one shelf for Senut, and another for the Akhu. In this way, they can be in the same "area," but they have their own distinct spaces.

I've heard this too and have been wanting to set up an arrangement like that for some time so I can have a more permanent Akhu shrine, is there a specific way one should do this like "always place the gods above the akhu" or does it not matter?
Sa Wepwawet-Yinepu
mery Sekhmet-Mut her Ra

 


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