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Author Topic: Egyptian Involvement in KO  (Read 1188 times)

Offline Biwimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Egyptian Involvement in KO
« on: August 24, 2018, 04:47:38 pm »
Em hotep, everyone!

So, this is prompted by a tumblr post where an indigenous Egyptian person brought up the lack of Egyptian involvement in Kemetic spaces and the issues with it. Now, I know for a fact that Hemet works closely with Egyptians in both professional and social settings, and has made sure that major things in Kemetic Orthodoxy were done with the input of Egyptian people.

My question is, is there anywhere that Hemet discusses this more in-depth in a public space that can be shared with someone outside of the House? The person I'm talking to asked for more information and I don't know how too provide it, especially since most of the information I've found is vague and/or in private parts of the forums (in threads mostly unrelated to the topic of working with Egyptians).

Thank you and senebty,
Hawke
Biwi
“My two mothers set a good example (for me).”

Child of Sekhmet-Hethert and Serqet-Aset.
Beloved of Khonsu, Set, and Wepwawet-Yinepu.

Offline Tasedjebbast

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2018, 05:41:48 pm »
I know I’ve heard that we do have members in Egypt, but I don’t know who they are specifically. 

What was this person concerned about?  There is no unbroken religious tradition back to antiquity. Well, maybe the Copts but they’re Christian. Egypt is predominantly a Muslim country.  If there are Egyptians worshipping the Netjeru; this is likely to be something they’ve also attempted to reconnect to in modern times.  So which Egyptian people specifically is this person concerned whose input we’re not seeking?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 07:15:44 pm by Taji »
Daughter of Bast-Mut & Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Beloved of Yinepu, Sekhmet, Set, Heru-wer, and Aset

Offline Shezatwepwawet

  • Moderator (Kemetic Orthodox Q&A)
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Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2018, 07:04:21 pm »
There is also a very real concern with religious persecution in Egypt. It is a safety measure NOT to potentially identify people, even by area, so as not to pose any risks.
Senebty,
Zat (She who makes Sekhmet laugh)
Sau apprentice | Fedw | The Library | zat@kemet.org

Sat Wepwawet-Yinepu her Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS) meryt Seshat-Nit-Nebthet her Heru-wer her Aset-Serqet

Offline Biwimuti

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2018, 08:34:14 pm »
I know I’ve heard that we do have members in Egypt, but I don’t know who they are specifically. 

What was this person concerned about?  There is no unbroken religious tradition back to antiquity. Well, maybe the Copts but they’re Christian. Egypt is predominantly a Muslim country.  If there are Egyptians worshipping the Netjeru; this is likely to be something they’ve also attempted to reconnect to in modern times.  So which Egyptian people specifically is this person concerned whose input we’re not seeking?

Their concern is specifically about ignoring people whose cultural heritage this religion is, and how often Kemetics divorce Kemeticism from Egypt as though any pagan religion can be completely removed from its home country. It's a problem in a lot of pagan communities, but they're Egyptian and so they're concerned about Kemeticism.

Non-Egyptians also have a nasty habit of feeling entitled to Egyptian artifacts, history, and culture and with shutting actual Egyptians out of those conversations, even while we claim that we treat Egyptian items more respectfully than we did less than a century ago.

It's a valid concern, and something I've personally dealt with as someone from a culture that many people claim is dead. A lot of people defend appropriation of native  spirituality with the claim that most natives are Christian anyway, and while that's true, it doesn't negate that native people still have a claim to our cultures and traditions and the right to decide what's done with them.

The situation with Egypt and Kemeticism isn't quite the same, of course, but Egyptian people should still have input in how their cultural heritage is treated, you know? Which is what this post was prompted by. I know that Hemet involves Egyptian people, not just members of the House, with KO and I wanted to know if there are details about that.
Biwi
“My two mothers set a good example (for me).”

Child of Sekhmet-Hethert and Serqet-Aset.
Beloved of Khonsu, Set, and Wepwawet-Yinepu.

Offline Tasedjebbast

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2018, 08:41:42 am »
Firstly, I'm going to admit that I don't know what you mean by "indigenous".  I am familiar with the term and I know what it means in North America, Australia, South Africa and places like that, but I don't know what it means in Egypt.  Kemet was a multicultural place for millennia with several waves of people who settled there from other places.  Are you an indigenous Egpyptian if you descend from the people of Nubia?  If you're Greek?  If you're Arab? Or are the indigenous solely those who can trace their ancestry to pre-dynastic times?  I'm guessing you meant everyone except the Arabs since they arrived much after pharaonic times, but I'm not sure. 

Hemet is indigenous North American, Haudenosaunee Confederacy, Onondaga. 

Our religion is intimately tied to the geography of Egpyt.  Our calendar follows the ebb and flow of the Nile before it was dammed.  It follows the agricultural cycle of the ancients.  Hemet herself did not consider herself truly King until she underwent the coronation rituals at the ancient sites.  She has said many times that those who go to Egypt gain a deeper understanding of this religion just by virtue of having been there. 

No one here is stealing artifacts.  No one here, to my knowledge, purchases or otherwise trades in stolen artifacts.  As a matter of fact, I know people who have seen suspected stolen artifacts for sale and have reported them to the appropriate authorities.  If someone unbeknownst to me is trading in stolen artifacts, they are certainly not doing it with Temple blessing or support. 

Egyptian people are welcome here.  Egyptian people are here.  But as Zat pointed out; they're not going to be terribly loud about it. 

To my knowledge there is no website that explains all this.  Though maybe there should be as we've had to defend ourselves against these accusations repeatedly.  At least you were nice about it.  Some people show up and accuse Hemet of being a clueless culture-raping white woman.  Which, as an indigenous person yourself, you can see how profoundly hurtful that would be to a indigenous American woman of color.  And more interestingly, none of these people have been Egyptian themselves.

Senebty,

Taji
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 09:01:32 am by Taji »
Daughter of Bast-Mut & Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Beloved of Yinepu, Sekhmet, Set, Heru-wer, and Aset

Offline Tjemsy

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2018, 08:59:12 am »
I wonder that this might be a question best asked of Hemet directly? ^^;
Tjemsy - "Two Red Ones"

Sat Sekhmet her Set
Meryt Heru-wer, Bast, Wepwawet, Taweret, Nebthet,
 & Nefertem-Imhotep


Fedw Diviner | Tjemsy@kemet.org

Offline Tasedjebbast

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2018, 09:03:54 am »
I wonder that this might be a question best asked of Hemet directly? ^^;

It sure could be.  And it has been.  Try a search in ATN first and then ask.  :)
Daughter of Bast-Mut & Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Beloved of Yinepu, Sekhmet, Set, Heru-wer, and Aset

Offline Shezatwepwawet

  • Moderator (Kemetic Orthodox Q&A)
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Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2018, 11:20:51 am »
Which would not be something viewable to a guest logged in on the forums.
Senebty,
Zat (She who makes Sekhmet laugh)
Sau apprentice | Fedw | The Library | zat@kemet.org

Sat Wepwawet-Yinepu her Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS) meryt Seshat-Nit-Nebthet her Heru-wer her Aset-Serqet

Offline Gezausenu

  • Guest
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2018, 12:58:37 pm »
True, but with Hemet's (AUS) permission then perhaps Hawke could pass that info on? Or if they were to ask Hemet anew, and pass that answer on, rather than an older one . . . ?

I'm just thinking that if it's a practical question for someone in Egypt who's concerned about appropriation or how their ancestors' culture is being treated . . . Hemet's spoken about that before, as others have said; in this case, Hawke would be the messenger, but . . . I think Hemet would want to reassure this individual, and if she can't speak with them herself, or they can't see her response on the forum, then it might not be inappropriate for someone to pass her words along?

Just a thought, and probably not a clear one at that. <3

Senebty,
Gezausenu.
I have left the House, but free services for Papa Set and Mama Sekhmet will always be offered to anyone who asks. Please e-mail me at gezausenu@gmail.com if you need anything at all. Ever. <3

Offline KhaiPtah

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2018, 03:57:59 pm »
Just a few thoughts

we are not reconstructionists. This is a modern faith

How many people in America are Celtic pagans who have never been to Ireland

Why does it matter. Hemet (AUS) as I said on your thread on this in a different forum IS in close contact with people in Egypt. Not only for religious reasons but for reasons of scholarly endeavors. For cross faith works and social issues

Senebty


Khai

The Shadows of apathetic silence dim the Light of righteous anger Ptah - 8/21/05

Sa her Shemsu-Ankh Ptah Her Hekatawy-Alexandros (AUS). 
Mery Sekhmet-HetHert Mery Bast
Wab Priest For Ptah - Fundraising Liaison

Offline Sedjfaiemitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2018, 09:42:22 pm »
En hotep nefer, all!

I can definitely attest to the hostility toward anyone "other" in Egypt right now. I have a friend who taught in Egypt who helped secret some trans people and Atheists out of Egypt and put them on track toward becoming American citizens legally.

Something a lot of people on Tumblr, who are overwhelmingly Americocentric and haven't lived under oppressive military dictatorships, don't understand . . . The Egyptian government monitors its internet closely. If someone comes out on the internet, they can easily be found out and attacked for it. Not just "internet flamed," I mean "black bagged," "disappeared."

No one is entitled to information out of Egyptians over this issue. No one should have to be put at risk of physical harm or death to "prove" to some comparatively much more privileged American, or anyone else for that matter, that Kemetic Orthodoxy has the right "social virtues" on display.

Furthermore: seconding what KhaiPtah said. Hemet (AUS) and many of us here do our all to research Ancient Egyptian religion and mores appropriately, respect our spiritual ancestors by them, and do no harm to the patrimony of Modern Egyptians by them. Moreover, a number of us ARE, in fact, so-called "POC." I'm from a family of mixed ethnicities myself, and have North African and Levantine ancestry. That isn't why I'm Kemetic, though. That isn't why I swore myself to the Netjeru first and foremost, and to this community. Ethnicity / ancestry isn't the sole nor chief determining factor people should concern themselves with. At least, it shouldn't be.

Senebty!
Sedjfai
"Endowed by Two Fathers"
𓁣 𓁠
Sat Set her Amun-Re-Banebdjedet
Meryt Herishef, Wesir-Narefy, Heru-Wer, her Yinepu

Offline Sedjfaiemitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2018, 10:00:38 pm »
Addendum: Concerning Egyptian ethnic makeup, it's VERY Arab, and has been since the Central Middle Ages. Egypt has always been a multi-ethnic mosaic, but who Egyptians are now versus who Ancient Egyptians were at different points across Antiquity is markedly different. There isn't some "unbroken chain" of either some (imaginary) "ethnic purity" nor religious continuity. Modern Egyptians live where the religion concerned came from, but the notion that Modern Egyptians have a much "deeper," more "natural" connection than someone who wasn't born and raised there is quite misguided. That is cozying-up verrrrry uncomfortably to the sort of reasoning that Steve McNallen (of Asatru Folk Assembly fame, a well-known group of racist Norse Heathens in America) used when detailing his idea of "metagenetics." It's also ignoring basically ALL of Near Eastern Jewish, Christian, and Islamic history in the region, and the fact that countless Egyptian people over the centuries consciously chose (and still do choose!) to be Christian, Muslim, and to a lesser degree, Jewish.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 10:10:15 pm by Sedjfaiemitui »
"Endowed by Two Fathers"
𓁣 𓁠
Sat Set her Amun-Re-Banebdjedet
Meryt Herishef, Wesir-Narefy, Heru-Wer, her Yinepu

Offline Tasedjebbast

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2018, 10:14:41 pm »
I was pondering on that too, Sedjfai.

That when you get the specific brand of Norsefolk who believe ethnicity matters and people are, “OMG racists!”

Then you get us who say that ethnicity doesn’t matter and it’s “OMG racist! Cultural appropriators!” 

Does it matter or doesn’t it? 

As far as I’m concerned, the most knowledgable practitioner of seiðr and Odinsdottir I know is African American and the Gods call whom They will.

Be respectful.  Honor the Gods appropriately.  Honor the culture of those who honor(ed) those Gods.  Listen.  Be welcoming.  Cultural appropriation is a valid construct that anymore is weaponized beyond its original intent.  And I don’t like that.

Also one of my closest friends closest friends is a gay Libyan man.  He can’t go home.  He’ll die if he goes home.  How horrific is that?  I’ve known atheist Saudis who couldn’t go home either. One man’s own father threatened to turn him in.

Senebty,
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 10:22:54 pm by Taji »
Daughter of Bast-Mut & Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Beloved of Yinepu, Sekhmet, Set, Heru-wer, and Aset

Offline Sedjfaiemitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: Egyptian Involvement in KO
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2018, 10:24:33 pm »
I was pondering on that too, Sedjfai.

That when you get the specific brand of Norsefolk who believe ethnicity matters and people are, “OMG racists!”

Then you get us who say that ethnicity doesn’t matter and it’s “OMG racist! Cultural appropriators!” 

Does it matter or doesn’t it? 

As far as I’m concerned, the most knowledgable practitioner of seiðr and Odinsdottir I know is African American and the Gods call whom They will.

Be respectful.  Honor the Gods appropriately.  Honor the culture of those who honor(ed) those Gods.  Listen.  Be welcoming.  Cultural appropriation is a valid construct that anymore is weaponized beyond its original intent.  And I don’t like that.

Also one of my closest friends closest friends is a gay Libyan man.  He can’t go home.  He’ll die if he goes home.  How horrific is that?  I’ve known atheist Saudis who couldn’t go home either. One man’s own father threatened to turn him in.

Senebty,


Amen, Taji. Amen.
"Endowed by Two Fathers"
𓁣 𓁠
Sat Set her Amun-Re-Banebdjedet
Meryt Herishef, Wesir-Narefy, Heru-Wer, her Yinepu

 


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