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Author Topic: Male-nut?  (Read 941 times)

Offline Asethepetwi

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Male-nut?
« on: November 09, 2018, 08:39:21 pm »
Em hotep everyone,

Can someone tell me why Nut (on the left) on this image have a male-beard and a penis?
http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/creation_sexuality.jpg

Thank you all so much!
Asethepetwi (Aset embraces me)
For short: Hepet or Hepetwi
Sat Aset-Serqet Meryt Nut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Bast, her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat

Offline Ra'awyserqet

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2018, 03:08:53 am »
Em hotep GugaLopes!

So I'm not 100% because it's been a while since I've seen this sort of image, but I'm pretty sure that's ithyphallic Nut. From my understanding She is the Nut that self-creates/self-generates and because of that She can be depicted in a traditional style for masculine figures (note: She's still a female here).

So that would be both the self-generating Nut above the self-generating Geb (because He's pleasuring/"fertilizing" Himself). Because the two of Them can no longer touch, it ends up being up to other Names or Themselves to keep the life-generating creation flow going.

But as I said, it's been a hot minute since I saw this so I might be a bit off on details. I can try to find a reference in one of my books if you like.

Senebty
Ra'awy
(They/them)

Sat Serqet-Aset her Nisut-bity Hekatawy | (aus), meryt Sekhmet-Mut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Heru-wer, her Hethert-Nut-as-Nehmet-Awai.

Fedw Diviner

Offline Asethepetwi

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2018, 07:20:05 pm »
I have never heard of a self-generated Nut and Geb! I would love to know if you have more informations on it

Thank you so much!!
Asethepetwi (Aset embraces me)
For short: Hepet or Hepetwi
Sat Aset-Serqet Meryt Nut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Bast, her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 03:34:16 pm »
em hotep,

this is really an interesting depiction! I found a version where the glyphs around the figure are clearer, but I couldn't really read it all.
I'm not sure if the figure is Nut, however. It's identified as what I believe reads "wetjesu" - the "one raising up", and the title after this, which I could read clearly, is "Khontamenty" - foremost of the western ones, so that's usually a title of Wesir
Then there's a section about "Making the sky, making the earth, making the Duat, the great god" - but I'm not sure how to interprete the "making"... could be "the creator of", but I'm not sure about the grammar. It's all male forms, however.
And on top there are more titles that I don't understand in detail. Something about "Lord of the Hill" - the primeval mound Ben-ben, perhaps? And "vizier of the god, in the middle of Edfu"

Does anyone have a more professional translation?
Because so far it looks like a really interesting mix of titles that fit  both a creator god and a lord of the duat.
Of course, the "one who raises up" indeed sounds like a male version of Nut... very cool.

The one on the bottom, by the way, is Geb, Father of the Gods... those glyphs were pretty easy.
Just really interesting that he is shown in the act of masturbation, which you'd rather expect from Atum, in the act of creating Shu and Tefnut


senebty

Ma'en
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Offline Asethepetwi

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 08:46:51 pm »
Em hotep Ma'aen

Thank you for your help! This is really great and made me even more curious about the image hahaha
I'll wait if someone have more answers about it, if not, I'll send it to the Ask the Nisut (AUS) area, Hemet may have some informations on it

-Guga
Asethepetwi (Aset embraces me)
For short: Hepet or Hepetwi
Sat Aset-Serqet Meryt Nut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Bast, her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat

Offline Ra'awyserqet

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2018, 09:48:36 am »
Em hotep!

Actually I couldn't find the ithyphallic Nut reference I had seen before; it must have been in a book I rented or no longer own.

I did find a few things that implied this is Nun opposite Nut, who can be a pair/couple.

That's really cool Maen!

Senebty
Ra'awy
(They/them)

Sat Serqet-Aset her Nisut-bity Hekatawy | (aus), meryt Sekhmet-Mut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Heru-wer, her Hethert-Nut-as-Nehmet-Awai.

Fedw Diviner

Offline Asethepetwi

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2018, 11:24:17 am »
Em hotep, Ra'awy

Nut paired with Nun? That is quite new to me
So in this case, this would be Nun and not Nut? If so, why is he in the sky position?

Thank you!
Asethepetwi (Aset embraces me)
For short: Hepet or Hepetwi
Sat Aset-Serqet Meryt Nut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Bast, her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat

Offline Ra'awyserqet

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2018, 07:52:16 am »
Em hotep Guga!

So from my understanding of the cosmology of our theology, Nut (and Geb and Shu and therefore all created beings) are surrounded by Nun. Nut is also occasionally paired with Nun in Her form of Naunet. So in this space He's mirroring Her and the small Khentyamenti figure would make sense in this space too; because the Duat exists within and is also surrounded by Nun and there are a number of images of this.

This is the only full sized image I could find. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nun_budge.gif

Senebty
Ra'awy
(They/them)

Sat Serqet-Aset her Nisut-bity Hekatawy | (aus), meryt Sekhmet-Mut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Heru-wer, her Hethert-Nut-as-Nehmet-Awai.

Fedw Diviner

Offline Asethepetwi

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2018, 11:36:24 am »
Em hotep, Ra'awy

This makes so much sense! And in a way it is very similar to the image you send me now, and I've never seen the whole picture of it, just the image of Nun raising the Solar Barke, and another question appeared to me now: Why is Wesir in this rounded yoga-like position?

Thank you!
Asethepetwi (Aset embraces me)
For short: Hepet or Hepetwi
Sat Aset-Serqet Meryt Nut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Bast, her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat

Offline Ra'awyserqet

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 09:28:13 pm »
Em hotep Guga!

From my understanding Wesir is encompassing/enclosing the Duat were our Akhu stay. He's giving them a defined place within Creation because before Him there was no place for the dead to go (nor a way for them to be 'alive'). Wesir and His domain exist in a new space that He formed/forms.

Senebty
Ra'awy
(They/them)

Sat Serqet-Aset her Nisut-bity Hekatawy | (aus), meryt Sekhmet-Mut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Heru-wer, her Hethert-Nut-as-Nehmet-Awai.

Fedw Diviner

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2018, 04:48:16 pm »
Really cool stuff keeps happening to me ;D

That Image discussed in this thread: I saw it today, the original papyrus! :o :) :)
I visited the Rijksmuseum van de Oudheiden in Leiden, Netherlands today. They have a special exhibition about the Egyptian Gods at the momemt.
And guess what: there it was!!!! I totally did not expect that!

So of course I took notes:
The piece of papyrus in question belongs to the British Museum (they loaned it out to Leiden for the exhibition). Inventory EA10018,2 (tt 038).
Provenance: Thebes, third intermediate period.

...aaaaand: per the explanation given at the museum, the "Male Nut" is most likely a form of Wesir, and the pairing with Geb underneath Him might be a way of stressing the fertility and creative power of these two Gods


Senebty

Ma'en

Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Offline Asethepetwi

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2018, 04:55:19 pm »
THANK YOU SO MUCH MAEN! It really helped and I managed to find it on the british museum site and it says:
Quote
the night sky seems to be represented, and as a male who is identified as ‘Osiris Foremost of Westerners, maker of heaven, maker of earth, maker of the netherworld …’. The other figure is identified as ‘Geb father of the gods, the great god who made the earth and all that the sun encircles’. The fact that Osiris is ithyphallic presumably refers to the fact he is potent and resurrected, while Geb’s autofellatio is presumably a way of representing him as self-sustaining fertile – like the masturbating creator god: although alone, he is still capable of creation.

Here the link if anyone want to check it out https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=114314&partId=1
Asethepetwi (Aset embraces me)
For short: Hepet or Hepetwi
Sat Aset-Serqet Meryt Nut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Bast, her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat

Offline Asethepetwi

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2018, 06:38:25 pm »
Ra'awy and Ma'aen, here's a gift for both of you for helping me <3

https://www.deviantart.com/thecosmicocean/art/The-two-skies-777956158
Asethepetwi (Aset embraces me)
For short: Hepet or Hepetwi
Sat Aset-Serqet Meryt Nut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Bast, her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat

Offline Maen

  • Shemsu
  • Country: 00
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2018, 02:24:31 pm »
em hotep Guga,

Thank you so much for the picture! :D :D And for the link!
It's really helpful that the British Museum has so much of its collection digitalized.

And you don't need to thank me, I found it totally by chance. My parents are here for a visit, and I was looking for possible activities. So the Museum of Antiquities in Leiden seemed like a good idea.
That they currently have an Egyptian special exhibition was just a bonus, and I really did not expect to find "our" papyrus there. We should rather thank Wepwawet for opening this way to us.


senebty

Ma'en
Ma'a-en-Hethert ("rightly belonging to HetHert")
Daughter of HetHert-Sekhmet, beloved of Nut, Djehuty and Nit-NebtHet-Seshat

Offline Ra'awyserqet

  • W'ab Priest - Lay Clergy
  • Country: us
Re: Male-nut?
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2018, 03:12:24 pm »
Em hotep!

This is so great that it got tracked down!!! ^^ I'm so pleasantly surprised to see it's thought to be Wesir! (Star God anyone? Lol.)

Thank you so much for the cute little image Guga! Your program is really great! Thank you Maen for all your words and your work in this!

Senebty Ra'awy
(They/them)

Sat Serqet-Aset her Nisut-bity Hekatawy | (aus), meryt Sekhmet-Mut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Heru-wer, her Hethert-Nut-as-Nehmet-Awai.

Fedw Diviner

 


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