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Author Topic: "Negative" aspects of the Names  (Read 586 times)

Offline Asethepetwi

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
"Negative" aspects of the Names
« on: January 27, 2019, 05:49:27 pm »
Em hotep family,

I was thinking on how Ma'at and Creation is all about the balance of all the things, and this include "good" and "bad". That being said I started to think about what kind of "negative" events each Name can be related to.
For exemple: Aset as Weret Hekau, to me, could definetely be linked to  tsunamies and natural catastrophes like this. Another - more "human-like" - thing I can relate Aset to is the end of relationships and hard situations that lead to end of cycles.

While I was writting this I remember that a pagan friend of mine wrote a text (or talked about with me, not sure) about how Aphrodite is related to all kind of relationships, not only lovely and romantic ones, but also to abusive and hard relationships.

It is a fact, not only personally and spiritually, but also through epithets and texts, that the gods (from all pantheons) have "good" and "bad" qualities and some of the "bad" ones would probably be quite scary for humans, so, I want to know from you all, what """bad""" qualities and things can you relate to your gods?

Senebty
Hepetwi
Asethepetwi (Aset embraces me)
For short: Hepet or Hepetwi
Sat Aset-Serqet Meryt Nut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Bast, her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat

Shemsu Liaison

Offline Sedjfaiemitui

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: "Negative" aspects of the Names
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2019, 08:38:47 pm »
Em hotep nefer, Hepetwi!

The negative qualities of Set are probably much better known than the vast majority of His many beneficial / benign qualities, in part due to longstanding preferential treatment toward Graeco-Roman sources concerning Egyptian religions, and the overwhelmingly poor status Set held during that time (though, to wit, in the Western Oases Set was still a much-beloved and popular God during the Ptolemaic and Roman Periods -- albeit shown wearing a falcon face and largely omitting the Set-animal determinative from spellings of His name). Even ignoring the Graeco-Roman material, Set does have a very "dark" and unpleasant side.

For example, we have the epithets "Hotep her Awon(w)," "Sebi (ii em Gereh)," "'Ir Bw Dju," "Shed-Kheru," and "Mekha-Hepw" for Set -- meaning "Who is Satisfied with Plunder," "The Rebel (Who Comes in the Night [cf. nightmares])," "Who Does Evil," "Loud / Disorderly of Speech (the opposite of Ma'a-Kheru, "Justified / True of Speech")," and "Who Does Not Care About Laws," respectively.

Like Sobek (which Marco Zecchi gets into throughout in his text Sobek of Shedet: The Crocodile God in the Fayyum in the Dynastic Period), Set frequently exists on the fringes of "what is acceptable," and dwells on the threshold of civilized society -- like Sobek-Shedety in particular, many forms of Set are not quite "civilized." He frequently upholds and enforces the law, as exemplified by His slaying of A/pep and triumphing over Yamm, and is occasionally THE LAW and King of Kings as made clear by His syncretic form of Set-Re. But, particularly in the Horian and Osirian mythic cycles, Set is the Instigator, the Wrongdoer, the Pot-Stirrer, the Loud-Mouth (which was not to be admired in Ancient Egyptian society!), the One Who Is Judged (Wedja). The upset He causes or is otherwise involved in is, in a sense, "needful" in these mythic contexts, yet it is nevertheless on the wrong side of the law, on the wrong side of the moral-ethical ideal. ;)

Senebty!
Sedjfai
"Endowed by Two Fathers"
𓁣 𓁠
Sat Set her Amun-Re-Banebdjedet
Meryt Herishef, Wesir-Narefy, Heru-Wer, her Yinepu

Offline Asethepetwi

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Re: "Negative" aspects of the Names
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2019, 09:22:14 pm »
Em hotep, Sedjfai!

Em hotep nefer, Hepetwi!

The negative qualities of Set are probably much better known than the vast majority of His many beneficial / benign qualities, in part due to longstanding preferential treatment toward Graeco-Roman sources concerning Egyptian religions, and the overwhelmingly poor status Set held during that time (though, to wit, in the Western Oases Set was still a much-beloved and popular God during the Ptolemaic and Roman Periods -- albeit shown wearing a falcon face and largely omitting the Set-animal determinative from spellings of His name). Even ignoring the Graeco-Roman material, Set does have a very "dark" and unpleasant side.

For example, we have the epithets "Hotep her Awon(w)," "Sebi (ii em Gereh)," "'Ir Bw Dju," "Shed-Kheru," and "Mekha-Hepw" for Set -- meaning "Who is Satisfied with Plunder," "The Rebel (Who Comes in the Night [cf. nightmares])," "Who Does Evil," "Loud / Disorderly of Speech (the opposite of Ma'a-Kheru, "Justified / True of Speech")," and "Who Does Not Care About Laws," respectively.

Like Sobek (which Marco Zecchi gets into throughout in his text Sobek of Shedet: The Crocodile God in the Fayyum in the Dynastic Period), Set frequently exists on the fringes of "what is acceptable," and dwells on the threshold of civilized society -- like Sobek-Shedety in particular, many forms of Set are not quite "civilized." He frequently upholds and enforces the law, as exemplified by His slaying of A/pep and triumphing over Yamm, and is occasionally THE LAW and King of Kings as made clear by His syncretic form of Set-Re. But, particularly in the Horian and Osirian mythic cycles, Set is the Instigator, the Wrongdoer, the Pot-Stirrer, the Loud-Mouth (which was not to be admired in Ancient Egyptian society!), the One Who Is Judged (Wedja). The upset He causes or is otherwise involved in is, in a sense, "needful" in these mythic contexts, yet it is nevertheless on the wrong side of the law, on the wrong side of the moral-ethical ideal. ;)

Senebty!
Sedjfai

I confess I was waiting for someone to bring Set to this topic hahaha and I knew I would have a great answer.
I think that Set represents PERFECTLY this "negatives" aspects. Yes I do understand that after the greco-roman period Set got a worst reputation than the one he had in previous times, but still, he is the Lord of Caos! And STILL, He is part of Ma'at!!!!
It is, as I said on my inicial post: Balance!
The necessary ""caos"" and ""order"".

Senebty,
Hepetwi!
Asethepetwi (Aset embraces me)
For short: Hepet or Hepetwi
Sat Aset-Serqet Meryt Nut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Bast, her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat

Shemsu Liaison

Online Padememheru

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: "Negative" aspects of the Names
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2019, 09:41:50 pm »
I was hoping someone would mention Set.  Thank you Sedjefaiemitui.  So many do not understand Him simply because of that reputation during the Graeco-Roman period and are constantly equating Him with the Devil.

To me Set represents anger, but again sometimes anger can be a good thing when you think about, because it does tend to motivate you to do something about a certain situation.  And if you're able to remain level-headed enough you can use that anger to focus that energy to do something good.  But again, He's not just that like you said Asethepetwi, and of course you Sedjefaiemmitui.  It all comes back to the balance.

It's hard for me to think of other Netjer that I would associate with negative aspects though.  I'd have to do some more deep thinking and brainstorming on that.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 09:43:26 pm by Padememheru »
"When you do things right people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama's "Godfellas"

Padememheru ~The One Mentioned by Heru~
Sa Heru-sa-Aset (or Heru-Nedjitef)
Mery Set, Aset-Serqet, his Nut

Offline Asethepetwi

  • Shemsu
  • Country: br
Re: "Negative" aspects of the Names
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2019, 09:57:52 pm »
Em hotep, Padememheru!

I was hoping someone would mention Set.  Thank you Sedjefaiemitui.  So many do not understand Him simply because of that reputation during the Graeco-Roman period and are constantly equating Him with the Devil.

To me Set represents anger, but again sometimes anger can be a good thing when you think about, because it does tend to motivate you to do something about a certain situation.  And if you're able to remain level-headed enough you can use that anger to focus that energy to do something good.  But again, He's not just that like you said Asethepetwi, and of course you Sedjefaiemmitui.  It all comes back to the balance.

It's hard for me to think of other Netjer that I would associate with negative aspects though.  I'd have to do some more deep thinking and brainstorming on that.

I completly agree with you! And your comment about anger made me relate directly to Sekhmet too.
And thinking about your Dad being Heru-sa-Aset I can think a negative aspect to him (altough I had little periods of contact with Him and not very deeply, so I'm saying this based on historical associations): Imaturity. He is related to new things and childhood, so I can think of baby-Heru as a kid learning stuff, doing mistakes and having the child innocence that creates imaturity to some things. Do you agree? (and there's a part of the myth between He and Set where it also make me relate this: on the versions where he cuts Aset's head because she protected her brother Set it shows me this childishness side of Him)

Senebty,
Hepetwi
Asethepetwi (Aset embraces me)
For short: Hepet or Hepetwi
Sat Aset-Serqet Meryt Nut, Yinepu-Wepwawet, Bast, her Nit-Nebthet-Seshat

Shemsu Liaison

Online Padememheru

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: "Negative" aspects of the Names
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2019, 10:43:42 pm »
That is an excellent point Asethepetwi.  I completely forgot about that part of the Contendings where He cuts off Aset's head.  In fact I first learned through a book I read a couple years ago, and it boggled my mind at the time.  But about the child like manner and immaturity I can definitely see that being an aspect of a negative event.  And to add that, now that I think of it, there's also the recklessness part of my Papa's nature in His stories, especially as a young prince.  Being cocky and letting your arrogance override reason altogether.  Which can also be associated with Set as well when you think about it. 
"When you do things right people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama's "Godfellas"

Padememheru ~The One Mentioned by Heru~
Sa Heru-sa-Aset (or Heru-Nedjitef)
Mery Set, Aset-Serqet, his Nut

Offline LucasWonka

  • Remetj
  • Country: br
Re: "Negative" aspects of the Names
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2019, 11:06:10 pm »
I think of everything that is balance, not as "bad" and "good" but something as "small" and "great" or "more" or "less" and all deities have in their own mystery the power to regulate universes of according to the laws of ma'at.

I think it's about frequency and balance to keep the universe safe, like Rá in their incursion to repreend  Aphopis but he always back to keep all things in perfect work.

Answering your question, I think that don't have a "bad" part of the gods but the mistery to regulate this.
---- Lucas Oliveira -----

Offline Tai'awepwawet

  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: gb
Re: "Negative" aspects of the Names
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 08:18:39 am »
I feel like in many ways, the Netjeru are people. Not like us, not exactly, but still people, and so, they're always going to have some aspects to them that aren't super great, or at least aren't fun to deal with.

Ra got old and tired with ruling. Sekhmet had to be got drunk to stop her literally wiping out mankind. The Contendings is the story of bickering that took decades and decades to resolves. And of course there's the more personal experiences we have with the Netjeru. I've found Aset can be extremely aloof and sharp to the point of cruelty at times. Wepwawet can sit at the centre of the ways, and in judgement of your actions, and when he's in these roles he is not your friend, he can honestly be a bit like the emotionless judge high up behind his bench while you cry about your circumstances.

But I think that all of these things are part of the nature of the Gods and the nature of the world we are in, and even the parts that seem genuinely negative (like some of the ones from myth) are part and parcel of how our Gods and our world have become the way they are.
Meset Wepwawet
Meryt Serqet, Bast, Ra-Heruakhty, her Hethert-Amenti
Child of (Hekatawy Alexandros)|
Fedw and Tarot Diviner • Sau Apprentice
𓇼𓃧𓆫𓃠𓅊𓁥𓇼

Offline Taswauyinepu

  • Shemsu
  • Country: us
Re: "Negative" aspects of the Names
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 08:21:12 pm »
Em hotep!

Boy howdy do I have some info, courtesy of our good friend Bezen, on the darker side of my Father, Yinepu! Her website can be found here.
For some many of these things I have copy/pasted from Bezen's tumblr (as she phrases it far better than I could) and I will note those things by hyperlinking them.

He's normally seen as a very loving, gentle Name - and He can be/is! But He has His own shadows.
The big thing that I've read about is noted in one of His epithets - "Swallower of His Father" - as in eating people, or for the epithet, eating Wesir. "In an article by S. Hollis (“Anubis’s Mortuary Functions in ‘The Tale of Two Brothers”), she says: “[…] the “second death” which occurred through the jackal’s intervention effected a neutralizing of the initial death, for by incorporating the deceased into his body, the canid permitted the revival and rebirth of the deceased to a new life.” His eating of people/Wesir isn't necessarily for the sole sake of eating them, but rather in this instance is noted as a step along the path of rebirth! Reasoning aside, though, it's still an act of consumption, and definitely not as soft as a lot of folks get Him.

He also bears epithets such as "The Butcher", "He Who Butchers the Enemies", and “He Who Prepares the End, the Infliction of Calamity.” - according to Bezen, "In one myth he flays the skin off Set for his transgressions." Not quite so gentle there!

ANOTHER epithet is "Accounter/Claimer of Hearts" - which may seem pretty straight forward, He's the one Who weighs our hearts and accounts for our lives when it's time, yes? Well.. yes, however, "claimer" can be interpreted another way. "It can also be interpreted as ‘cleaver of hearts’ and PT 1287 has this lovely set of lines: “Seize them, remove their heads, cut off their limbs, disembowel them, cut out their hearts, drink their blood, and claim their hearts in this your name of Anubis Claimer of hearts!”" There's more on that aspect as eater of hearts in this post by Bezen as well!

His eating of people, and especially hearts it seems, has the capacity to be beneficial - for the intent of rebirth via Him. But it isn't always for a kind, loving reason. He is equally capable of exhibiting more feral, savage, and maybe even dangerous qualities.

And that's just Yinepu as Himself - that doesn't even touch on His side as Yineput/Anupet (as KO sees Anupet as His more feminine form)! Knives are equipped to Her paws and teeth to her jaws. "'You are Anupet, motionless on your belly, with teeth sharpened to ravage the Mischievous One.' / 'Words spoken by Anupet, the /female dog/ who barks against all who come with evil intentions, who cuts up the Wicked One in the back, so that he falls to the ground and so that he never exists again: "I have taken apart Yash by driving a knife into his back."'

In the form of Anupet, the savage side becomes more centered and more the focus of Their behavior - while Anupet is plenty capable of being loving mother, She is also fierce and ready to tear apart any who would hurt those She protects! And Yinepu exhibits these behaviors too, though they are less in the forefront with Him for most people. Most folks get Him as the soft but stern, kind, loving healer. Which is all well and good, but I find it fascinating to know His other side! I personally get Him more close to Anupet thus far, so I was a bit eager to share that info!


Senebty! (And major thanks to Bezen for all this info - seriously, check out her sites)
~Taswau
“The Journey of Yinepu" | fedw diviner
Meset Yinepu
Meryt Sekhmet-Mut, Hethert-Nut, her Bast
𓁢 𓁴𓃕𓃠

Offline Tuteniaset

  • Shemsu
  • Country: nz
Re: "Negative" aspects of the Names
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2019, 10:36:08 pm »
Em hotep!

I'm loving this! So many fascinating points. It's interesting to me to try to access those parts of the divinity that is the more negative or shadow side. In my line up, Aset has her seven scorpions that she has power over. From the story, I wouldn't want to get on her bad side! She also is not afraid of tricking and poisoning her own father, Ra for his sacred knowledge. The Serqet side of Aset seems even more into the darker mysteries, that I'm still learning about. She reminds me of the old adage "what can cure can kill".

My first beloved Ra, is very positive because the sun is so often seen as one of the most positive things in the universe- we have life because of Him! We need the sun to grow plants and live on our planet. However, he does send Sekhmet to end the world because he gets tired of humanity. I think he feels bad for this, now-- or at least my version of Ra looks back upon his past actions and feels guilt. Our gods are not perfect, they are powerful beings trying to maintain order in a world of chaotic circumstance.

If you look at any of our Names, you will find a less than favorable story about them or an epithet that may be unsavory, even vicious. Yet, we have so many positive and beautiful aspects to them I don't know of anyone who is really that bothered by their negative sides. It seems only natural I think...

However, there is the whole most Set kids are scared of Aset and vice versa stigma within the HON. I admit, I was scared of Set for a while, but we've come to a place of peace now and I've now seen a lovable side of Him.

I love looking at the dichotomy of a deity, I feel like I could write on this subject for ages but I'll stop here for now.

Senebty

Tuteni
Tuteni
Sat Aset-Serqet 𓎬
Meryt Ra, Djehuty, her Wadjet
𓎬𓆫 𓅄𓁟𓆗
Usui Reiki Master/Teacher

Offline Capra

  • Remetj
  • Country: ca
Re: "Negative" aspects of the Names
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2019, 03:43:36 pm »
I had a bit of an epiphany when I went through a bad patch emotionally last December. I was dealing with my resistance to honour my Akhu because of abusive acts and tendencies on some of their parts, and also rage at others for not stopping the abusers. Much of my rage was centred in my 'heart chakra' area. I knew that Khonsu did help with mental illness so I did call out to him (as well as Netjer in general) to help.

Imagine my surprise when I learned that some of Khonsu's epithets from Unas' pyramid writings described Him as "It is Khonsu who slew the lords, who strangles them for the King and extracts for him what is in their bodies, for he is the envoy who is sent to punish". Later periods also describe him as "CT 311, that Khonsu “lives on hearts,” capable of sending out "the rage which burns hearts" and 994 that he “lives on heads.” "

Healing and protective deities need to do violence to do their jobs - battling enemies, illness, etc. The 'rage which burns hearts' phrase really hit me because of what I was experiencing, though it might be more accurate to say he 'ate/purified/etc.' the rage and pain in my heart, as it has not reappeared since. :) [Definitely the Hawk-headed icon suits this aspect more than the child icon.]

« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 11:16:37 pm by Capra »

 


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