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Author Topic: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism  (Read 59902 times)

Offline Kefetmisenu

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2008, 06:50:05 pm »
Again, I write there are more differences. Perhaps an older member (and one not as dog tired) can elaborate.
Kefetmisenu
Sat Heru-wer her Hethert-Sekhmet
Gothic horror writer and artist. Icon is my own artwork

Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2008, 06:51:36 pm »
Quote from: Bestekeni
I don't think there's one answer to that.  That's why I'm saying the content of your practices are more important than what you call it.

And this content is what is described as orthopraxy (correct practice), so then there are practices that would invalidate a person's individual practice as Kemetic? I'm becoming very confused.

Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2008, 06:54:56 pm »
Quote from: Taji
Ah.  I see where you're coming from now.  I think a difference between something like Tameran Wicca and Kemetic Orthodoxy would be the "cultural" (for the lack of a better word) aspect if that makes any sense.  Tameran Wicca still has the culture, or maybe "framework" is a better word, of Wicca.  They do rituals the Wiccan way and cast circles and that sort of thing.  While our cultural orientation or framework is more in line with (though not in any way identical to) that of ancient Kemet and other ATRs in general.  I'm not explaining that as well as I'd like and you could probably write book on it, but does that make any sense?

But still even saying that, we are who we are and they are who they are.  Kemetic Orthodoxy isn't Tameran Wicca and vice versa.  I think the academic discussion of differences in framework is interesting, but fundamentally it's more about finding the place where your heart is at home.  

Is Tameran Wicca considered Kemetic?

Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2008, 06:56:22 pm »
I don't think Bestekeni meant that, but then I am not her! :)

The thing is, there already is a tradition, I think it's called Tamaran Wicca, which is a Wiccan path with Egyptian deities. Also, many esoterical groups now, and in the past, had connections to Egyptian deities like the 19th c. and early 20th century traditions -Aleister Crowley comes to mind, the Book of Thoth etc. These are all VERY different than KO. The only thing in common would be the Egyptian gods and goddesses are being focused on, but KO takes a very different approach with that too.

We have specific rites and rituals, like the RPD, the Senut ritual. We also have a Nisut, who some would regard fully as our King, and others may see her as a teacher. But there IS an authority figure here, and it's not "whatever goes" type of approach. I think Neopaganism is quite the opposite in that sense.

As for Nova Roma, and some reconstructivist religions such as Hellenic paths, we are much more spirituality based as opposed to formulaic rituals -granted, I said that we do have established rites and rituals, but personal relationship to one's parent/beloved names is very much in focus here.

It's really late here, but I hope to have answered SOME of your questions. I guess the easier way to find out would be to make some reading around the boards and see for yourself too -there may be certain topics that may interest you more than others. And if you get REALLY interested, you could always sign up for the beginner's class.

I wish you a fruitful time on the boards! Don't bother "bugging" us, I'm sure all of us here would do our best to help you out.
Senebty
Khefet - KhefetBast-Mut "in accordance with Bast-Mut"

Sat Bast-Mut
Meryt Aset-Serqet, Yinepu-Wepwawet her Sekhmet-Hethert

Offline Bestekeni

  • Semer-Wati
  • Shemsu-Ankh
  • Country: us
Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2008, 06:57:57 pm »
I don't think there's some sort of magic checklist.  There's not a hard line when it comes to that.  There is a more solid line when comes to what is Kemetic ORTHODOX or not, but "Kemetism" is a poorly-defined and highly subjective term.  That's why, in my opinion, what you call what you do doesn't really matter all that much.
Fedw diviner for Bes
𓃀𓎂𓀭𓏏𓎡𓈖𓁐
Sat Bes her Hekatawy Alexandros (AUS)
Meryt Heru-wer her Amun-Ra her Bast

Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2008, 07:07:01 pm »
Quote from: Khefetbastmut
The thing is, there already is a tradition, I think it's called Tamaran Wicca, which is a Wiccan path with Egyptian deities. Also, many esoterical groups now, and in the past, had connections to Egyptian deities like the 19th c. and early 20th century traditions -Aleister Crowley comes to mind, the Book of Thoth etc. These are all VERY different than KO. The only thing in common would be the Egyptian gods and goddesses are being focused on, but KO takes a very different approach with that too.


Quote from: Bestekeni
I don't think there's some sort of magic checklist.  There's not a hard line when it comes to that.  There is a more solid line when comes to what is Kemetic ORTHODOX or not, but "Kemetism" is a poorly-defined and highly subjective term.  That's why, in my opinion, what you call what you do doesn't really matter all that much.

OK, so while Crowley may not be Kemetic Orthodoxy, he can be considered Kemetic because his practice did make connections to Egyptian deities?

Offline Taji

  • Divined Remetj
  • Country: us
Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2008, 07:09:39 pm »
If you want to call Tameran Wicca or Ceremonial Magic Kemetic, you could probably make an argument for it.  But that is missing the point that what you do is more important than what you call it.  And the idea that as Kemetic Orthodox, we largely concern ourselves with our own practices and beliefs and let others do the same.  I would recommend learning about Kemetic Orthodoxy (or any faith actually) within its own context.  I think it's a much richer experience that way.  The question isn't so much "what do I call this?" but more "does this resonate for me?"
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 07:16:40 pm by Taji »
Taseddjebbastmut,
Daughter of Bast-Mut
Beloved of Yinepu, Sekhmet, Set, Heru-wer, & Aset

Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2008, 07:15:25 pm »
I agree with Taji here. Kemetic is not a name that is registered to KO, I guess any group, having some sort of relation to Ancient Egyptian deities and/or practices could use the name -but they would not be Kemetic Orthodox. Kemetic Orthodox is House of Netjer, it has its own set of rules, rites, rituals, tradition (year 16 coming up by now), etc. There are many groups out there, as far as I know, who use the word Kemetic for their practice, and I'm not just talking about the "off-shoots" from KO (I'm sorry for using this term, I don't use it in a derogatory sense, just that, these groups were founded by ex-members/affiliates of the House.)
Khefet - KhefetBast-Mut "in accordance with Bast-Mut"

Sat Bast-Mut
Meryt Aset-Serqet, Yinepu-Wepwawet her Sekhmet-Hethert

Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2008, 07:19:11 pm »
Quote from: Taji
If you want to call Tameran Wicca or Ceremonial Magic Kemetic, you could probably make an argument for it.  But that is missing the point that what you do is more important than what you call it.

I'm really trying to understand everyone's responses, but I think I am missing something. If what is and is not Kemetic is defined by orthopraxy then I can get that, but I think I am getting lost somewhere. If what is Kemetic is a reconstruction or revival of an African Traditional Religion, that is easy enough to understand, but if that only defines The House of Netjer then it looks like (from other responces) the line is any practice that makes connections to Egyptian deities.

Offline Rev. Sema'a

  • W'ab (priest)
  • Country: us
Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2008, 07:23:09 pm »
Let me see if I can sum this up for you in a reasonably sized nutshell.

To call yourself Kemetic, in any way, shape, or form, you recognize that you are worshipping the gods of ancient Egypt, and honor them in some way, shape, or form. I would even go so far as to say that you could do this in any framework aside from Wiccan. The reason I exclude a Wiccan framework is the existence of Tameran Wicca, aka Egyptian Wicca. I wouldn't say Tameran Wicca is Kemetic, because... well, it's Tameran Wicca. It has a name of its own already. There's nothing specific you need to do, really, other than declare yourself a devotee of the gods of Kemet *as the gods of Kemet* - not as tools, as in ceremonial magick, or as the Lord and Lady of Wicca.

But - To call yourself Kemetic Orthodox, you practice the form of Kemetic religion taught by the House of Netjer. Most members of the House of Netjer believe similar things, but not everyone has identical beliefs. What is more accurate is to say that we all pretty much do the same things that make us Kemetic Orthodox. We all follow the same practices, more or less. There are other things people add in, as part of their personal faith, but there are a few basic formal things that make one Kemetic Orthodox that the majority of followers all perform. There is always some leeway here and there for people to do some things, and not others, of course.

Kemetic Orthodoxy is not considered a reconstructionist faith by its adherents and clergy, most likely because of the sheer impossibility suggested by the term 'reconstructionist' when applied to ancient Kemet. To truly reconstruct ancient Egyptian religion, you would need to rebuild a culture which, though it is not dead, has undergone millenia of changes. Kemetic religion is deeply rooted in the culture and the society of ancient Egypt. We can't rebuild that here, even if we tried - we will always be modern, global citizens, living in the 21st century. Besides - things that worked in ancient times won't work now, and we need to find ways to work with and through modern technology. Hence the on-line simulcasts of some rituals held for members of the House of Netjer; hence the modern rituals such as Senut, hence this whole global community of faith known as the House of Netjer. That's my take on it, anyways - I'm not sure if it matches any sort of 'official' stance, if there is one.

I think whether you define yourself as neopagan, reconstructionist, or not, is really up to you. I define myself as pagan and Kemetic Orthodox - though, I am pagan, *and* I am Kemetic Orthodox - I am not pagan *because* I am Kemetic Orthodox. Make sense? Really, Kemetic faith is something that tends to fall outside of a nice little box. It could be pagan, it could be neopagan, it could be ATR, it could be a purple polka-dotted penguin's nose.

There is no easy answer for 'what makes someone Kemetic'. It really comes down to "Are they anything else first? Are they Wiccan? Are they working ceremonial magick? Or are they just worshipping the gods of Egypt?"

I hope that clears things up a little bit.
Sema'a Ankh Hen'a Semawy (Sobeqsenu)
W'ab Nekhen Ib Imau-sen
Priest of Wepwawet & Sekhmet-Mut, Beloved of Bast, Nut, Khonsu & Nebt-het
Heri-sesheta Wepwawet | Fedw Diviner
revdgallo@kemet.org

Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2008, 07:25:43 pm »
Zigzag, maybe you missed my last post before replying, but Kemetic comes from the Ancient name of Egypt: KMT (they used no vowels) which meant (and still means, actually) the "Black Land", meaning the fertile areas surrounding the River Nile. It can really be used by anyone -I guess- making a connection to Ancient, or even Coptic Egypt, if they wanted to.

Kemetic is one thing, Kemetic Orthodoxy is another. Just because the group uses the word "kemetic" doesn't really give a very clear idea on their system, except that they are certainly making a connection to Ancient Egypt.
Khefet - KhefetBast-Mut "in accordance with Bast-Mut"

Sat Bast-Mut
Meryt Aset-Serqet, Yinepu-Wepwawet her Sekhmet-Hethert

Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2008, 07:28:00 pm »
Sobeq, just writing this to let you know that your post was really good, and, I think, covered pretty much everything. :) (thankfully there are more erudite people than me on the boards here!)
Khefet - KhefetBast-Mut "in accordance with Bast-Mut"

Sat Bast-Mut
Meryt Aset-Serqet, Yinepu-Wepwawet her Sekhmet-Hethert

Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2008, 07:44:47 pm »
Quote from: Sobeqsenu
It could be pagan, it could be neopagan, it could be ATR, it could be a purple polka-dotted penguin's nose.

Thanks Sobeqsenu, most of what you said made sense to me, but based on this statement why wouldn't Tameran Wicca (or any form of Wicca incorporating the Egyptian Gods) and Ceremonial Magic not be Kemetic? I hope I'm not coming across as difficult, but in doing my research of "recon" religions (maybe traditional religions is better) the distinction between the traditional religion and Neopaganism seems a little clearer.

Offline Rev. Sema'a

  • W'ab (priest)
  • Country: us
Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2008, 07:49:48 pm »
Quote from: ZigZag
Quote from: Sobeqsenu
It could be pagan, it could be neopagan, it could be ATR, it could be a purple polka-dotted penguin's nose.

Thanks Sobeqsenu, most of what you said made sense to me, but based on this statement why wouldn't Tameran Wicca (or any form of Wicca incorporating the Egyptian Gods) and Ceremonial Magic not be Kemetic? I hope I'm not coming across as difficult, but in doing my research of "recon" religions (maybe traditional religions is better) the distinction between the traditional religion and Neopaganism seems a little clearer.


Not difficult at all. The main reason that Tameran Wicca and Ceremonial Magic aren't Kemetic are because they don't originate from Kemet. Ceremonial Magic, though it utilizes Kemetic deities, originated from... well, wherever it did, I'm not really sure. Tameran Wicca ultimately goes back to Gerald Gardner. Rather than the practitioner of Tameran Wicca or Ceremonial Magic saying "I should like to follow the Egyptian gods", they are saying "I should like to be Wiccan. Let me follow the Egyptian gods"; or "I should like to practice Ceremonial Magic. Let me call upon the Egyptian gods". Does that make more sense?
Sema'a Ankh Hen'a Semawy (Sobeqsenu)
W'ab Nekhen Ib Imau-sen
Priest of Wepwawet & Sekhmet-Mut, Beloved of Bast, Nut, Khonsu & Nebt-het
Heri-sesheta Wepwawet | Fedw Diviner
revdgallo@kemet.org

Re: Kemetic Orthodoxy vs. Neopaganism
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2008, 07:50:34 pm »
Quote from: Khefetbastmut
Zigzag, maybe you missed my last post before replying, but Kemetic comes from the Ancient name of Egypt: KMT (they used no vowels) which meant (and still means, actually) the "Black Land", meaning the fertile areas surrounding the River Nile. It can really be used by anyone -I guess- making a connection to Ancient, or even Coptic Egypt, if they wanted to.

Kemetic is one thing, Kemetic Orthodoxy is another. Just because the group uses the word "kemetic" doesn't really give a very clear idea on their system, except that they are certainly making a connection to Ancient Egypt.

I get that. I found the same issue in place with the word Hellenismos. The word refers to Greek culture as a whole, not specifically Ancient Greece, but there seems to be great offense when it is applied to Neopagan or Occult practices that just incorporate Greek Deities.

 


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